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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Scalder/Firewalkers:

This would be a fire starter.

Treefolk/Frostwings:

Here you get all the color except fire.


That's funny, I'd go for the exact opposite combination:

Treefolk - Firewalkers

Its easy to see why treefolk and firewalkers clash - trees burn and fire is extinguished by water. All the basic elements in a single package. A nice side theme is the immovable vs the quick theme.

Scalders - Frostwings

For me personally, they both have a bit if an Iceland theme going on, but the elements still clash quite clearly. The intangibility might be strong against missiles, but but with the volume of fire the Frostwings can dish out, and the lack of saves on the Scalders, they'll certainly need it. On the other hand, the scorching touch is strong, but the Frostwings are not left without options (unlike the firewalkers). Again, there's no colour overlap between the two, giving players a broad impression of the kinds of spells.


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Dolus
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the treefolk/firewalkers combination.

Frostwings/scalders is probably how I would pair those up as well, but since it's a starter, I feel that these two would probably be the more difficult races to pick up and learn as a new player. Maybe I'm wrong, though. I honestly don't know how difficult these would be for new players, but I'm just speculating.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a little fuel for the fire...

DragonDice has always had randomized starters. Most CCG's in the 90's did as well and it wasn't until 'constructed' starters that they began being fixed.

Again, ignoring feasibility. what do you think about this concept? considering that we only have 20 dice per race. how would a non-random starter work? How would you get the other dragon/terrain/units that weren't part of the fixed starter? is it even a desired thing?

I only ask because the comment has come up a few times in the last 8 weeks.
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If its feasible it would work. Perhaps have the races pre-constructed armies made up in away to play on their own individual tactics?
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can make it happen, do it. I think a non-random starter is an excellent idea, since you can make them balanced against each other. As it stands, if one player gets a decent smattering of melee or missile or mage, while the other guy gets complete randomness, one army is inherently better.

Non-random means each player has a decent setup.

I wouldn't do something like the demo armies, though, where you have 1 of each common and 3 different uncommons. I'd make them actually (somewhat) focused on one attack type.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like the random race concept the best...
and since SFr is releasing race kickers,
it would be nice to go back to the random race kicker.

When I first began playing Dragon Diceâ„¢,
I played Sealed deck because I thought that I stood a better chance to win,
if I got lucky and had a some great dice.

This holds true to the 2 player starter,
but with random races,
you can get some real Zonkers mixes,
or you may just get that super blend.

So I prefer the random multiple race because of the pool of dice it creates.

I also like the build your own concept...
so basically,
you choose which dice you want to use and scrap the rest...
this really gives a player a chance the pan through the pool and tune to the best that they can the cards that were given to them.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strongly, very strongly oppose the "mixed race" starter. It might be cute and novelty, but players are going to want to get a complete army, not a mix and match of random dice.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Strongly, very strongly oppose the "mixed race" starter. It might be cute and novelty, but players are going to want to get a complete army, not a mix and match of random dice.


This is how sealed box was played in the beginning...
as far as what players are going to want....

I was player #127....(1995) still have the dice bag with marker on it.
single elimination...I lost to Mark Wiker (second game) who actually won sealed...and the worlds that year.
the amount of players signed up was huge!! Shocked

The tables went down the hall. Wink

"It might be cute and novelty"
hardly
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:26 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go poll a thousand people and see what they say. "Do you want completely random dice in a two-player starter, or two preconstructed armies?"

See what you come up with.
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
...but players are going to want to get a complete army, not a mix and match of random dice.


I can only argue for myself, but I think it would be pretty neat to have a bit of everything in a starter. What better way to get introduced to all the different types of dice than to own one of each?
Sadly, I think it might be sub-optimal when considering the amount of rules one must learn to play the starter right. Another point that some racial benefits don't really pop in small forces, and might even end up being confusing because of it.
Then there's the point of a re-buy value. I wouldn't want to buy too many of a starter that had fixed dice, as you'll only need a certain amount of each die. With the random dice you get a product that you can buy much more often than once or twice.

There is an option I have not yet heard, but has undoubtedly been discussed before: how about putting the starter dice (dragons, terrains) in a separate bag? This way you can mix and match the bags in several products. You could sell kickers, 2x kicker + starter bag, or just the starter bag. I bet there is a downside to this, but I'm not seeing it yet.


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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a mixed bag item could be cool, but not as a two-player starter. Would you like a Magic starter (actual starter, not a booster pack) that was all 5 colors and a bunch of random lands? You'd never accomplish anything with it, and you'd get bored with it pretty quickly.
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
I think a mixed bag item could be cool, but not as a two-player starter. Would you like a Magic starter (actual starter, not a booster pack) that was all 5 colors and a bunch of random lands? You'd never accomplish anything with it, and you'd get bored with it pretty quickly.


You'd probably accomplish as much random vs random as you would premade vs premade, and I think you will accomplish as much random vs non-starter army as you would premade vs non-starter. That is, unless you provide an army with non-starter level quality in the starter. But then it wouldn't be much of an actual starter, would it?


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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

MTG seal deck:

They do have preconstructed decks...
however,
the sealed deck is made up of random cards.

They give you X amount of rares, uncommon, and commons, plus lands and artifacts,
but it's not organized by mana. (color)

I like this because in a tournament,
your fate is in the ability to scramble and use new dice,
while you still hope to pull some good dice.

It's an adventure to say the least.
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AC
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

People seem to be approaching this, as with other issues, from the perspective of what appeals most to an established player, who may or may not be the target of a Starter Pack. What does a new player care about a "properly-constructed army" when s/he as yet has no grasp of the rules? What would this accomplish but to force the creation of new products, alter the rarity of dice, and potentially narrow a new player's conception of what can constitute a "proper" army?

I will reiterate what was mentioned in another thread: You can play with a Starter Pack force. It may not be ideal inasmuch as it will not be built toward a specific focus, but having a guaranteed X points of a single race is sufficient for a player to field an army and compete enough to learn the game. The original Starters had a mix of four races; one could easily (and often did) end up with a complete mess. This was not automatically discouraging, because we, the new players, had no idea what constituted the optimum force and were simply thrilled to be rolling dice with swords and feet on them.

Dragon Diceâ„¢ is not a card game. In a card game, the only randomness in the system derives from the shuffling of the deck. DD introduces randomness into every action. This creates a dramatic difference in the range of potential outcomes between the articles of play in a given turn. A collection of random dice can produce favorable results, and is likely to do so at a higher rate than a collection of random cards, particularly as card games tend to have certain cards that are prerequisite to the use of others, a restriction not found in DD outside of Magestorm items.

The player of a collectible game has every real expectation that in order to compete at a tournament level or even simply experience the full range of the game's components s/he will have to invest in multiple units of purchase. What is gained, mathematically, by sale of the Premade Army Starter vs. what is lost by the creation of new products (if this is an issue) and potential lost sales from players who now have diminished need to invest in further units? Can we confidently state that a damagingly high number of potential players will be lost when they purchase only a Starter and don't discover a perfect complement of dice?

It's been about fifteen years since I picked up a Magic card. My time in that game was brief, but it did intersect with a period when Starters were almost entirely random (one received a fixed number of rares, lands, etc., but the specific cards were random) -- all five colors, all manner of spell. You couldn't do a thing with a Starter except learn the rules, and it was absolutely what was expected.

The current, two-race Starters are not completely random. They do not contain all five colors like olde timey Magic and DD Starters did. The player is given a fighting force which while probably less than ideal is far from unusable. The player learns the rules and is encouraged to collect more dice. Is this different from the expectation shared by game company and customer?

Incidentally, a survey study consisting of a single, highly-biased question is unlikely to produce significant or reliable results.
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DScottOBrien
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with the points AC has made. a preconstructed starter is also not feasible for another reason. in order to facilitate this, you would need to pay people to pull certain dice from the bins, thereby increasing the cost of the starters. this would also facilitate the need for new molds to accomodate the "ideal" army. what would you do with all thse ettercraps otherwise?

Just my two cents worth
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
MTG seal deck:

They do have preconstructed decks...
however,
the sealed deck is made up of random cards.

They give you X amount of rares, uncommon, and commons, plus lands and artifacts,
but it's not organized by mana. (color)

I like this because in a tournament,
your fate is in the ability to scramble and use new dice,
while you still hope to pull some good dice.

It's an adventure to say the least.


Untrue. Magic precons are specific cards, non-random.
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy i think he is talking about the sealed pack tournaments. These are made of booster packs now . They are quite random lol.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealed deck tournaments are a format, not a product. The precon decks that Wizard makes are non-random.
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the comment wasn't aimed at yours?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the only salient point IMO regarding how to do new starters would be the # of SKUs.

I'd recommend 1 SKU for starters - simplifies it for the truly NEW player and also for any store attempting to carry the line. There's so many kickers - why go for many kinds of starters?
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