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Racial abilities and other rules wordings

 
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:37 am GMT    Post subject: Racial abilities and other rules wordings Reply with quote

The deeper I "dig" myself into the advanced rules, the more questions arise. Another big problem for me is that I still confuse old rules with the new advanced rules.
I tried to go from 0 to 100 in just a few games and got a little overloaded with all the options in this wonderful game Embarassed which lead to re-reading parts of the rules over and over again.

There are several racial abilities which count rolled icons as different results (like counting maneuvers as saves or counting maneuvers as missiles.)

rules wrote:
RACIAL ABILITIES
Beyond its particular mix of elements and icons, each race also has a unique special ability.
Racial abilities that modify results are applied after the multiply step but before the addition step (see Dice
Modifiers) by simply counting the icons rolled with the desired result (e.g. counting your maneuver icons
during a save roll). These results are never “converted” into another result, they are only counted in
addition to the result the army is trying to generate.


Let's say I've cast a spell on a Lava Elve army at a highland terrain giving the army extra additional maneuvers (like e.g. Wind Walk, adding four maneuvers).
The old rules stated very clear (e.g. in the DCM) that "...spells that add automatic maneuver results (such as Wind Walk) aren't counted when determining the results of a special racial ability" including an example for that.

Reading the new rules (see above), then I think this rule is still applied since it says "... simply counting the icons rolled..." ?? Rolling Eyes

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just a matter of language problems (even though I considered my English being pretty good) but there are quite a lot of wordings in the new rules which aren't put into words as clearly as they used to be in the old rules.

Please don't get me wrong, you guys made a fantastic job in improving the rules for much better gaming!!

But at some points I just miss a clear statement which could be done in one sentence.
Important stuff like "SAIs don't work when rolled in the DUA, except "Rise of Ashes" .
Well, of course it makes sense that if a magician rolling a Cantrip in the DUA while attempting to roll a save to prevent from being buried due to a red Dragon Breath can't use the Cantrip because he's dead and there-fore isn't able to focus on the astral forces. But if he's dead, how can he roll for a save to prevent being buried?? Rolling Eyes
It might be stated somewhere in the rules that SAIs don't work when rolled in the DUA, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

The problem I'd like to point out is that if you're not completely familiar with the new rules yet it sometimes is almost impossible to find a quick answer to a question without reading almost the entire rules hoping that it is mentioned somewhere.

A few more repetitions in the rules would help a lot, even though I know that this would lead to more pages in the already "thick rules folder".
Or maybe those statements I mentioned above could be added to the Glossary which is second after checking the rules "headlines" and reading the appropriate parts in the rules.

Another example I stumbled about in a game:

rules wrote:
Dragon Slaying
Each dragon is worth 5-health and has 5 automatic saves. Therefore, it takes 10 or more missile or melee
results to slay a dragon.
Melee and missile results cannot be combined to kill a dragon. However, the
player may kill multiple dragons using melee results for one and missile results for another, as long as the
results used to kill each dragon total 10 or more. After the player applies the results of their roll, if there is
a sufficient amount of non-ID melee or missile hits to kill a dragon (or multiple dragons), then the dragon
is killed.

Example: A player battling two dragons rolls 20 non-ID melee results. The player cannot choose to have all
20 melee hits applied to one dragon (e.g. in order to leave the other dragon to attack another player’s army
on the next turn). Both dragons would be slain, each receiving 10 melee hits apiece.


If it would say "..10 or more IDs, melee or missile results to slay a dragon" then it would be perfectly clear that IDs can also be used to kill a dragon! That's how I always played it of course but after re-reading the above rules during the game I got the idea that this might have been changed even though it is of course mentioned in the rules that IDs can be counted for everything you're rolling for! And the second sentence marked red even underlines that impression! See what I mean? By repeating "IDs" in this short part of the rules there wouldn't be any question! And by saying " A player has the choice if he wants to kill a Dragon or not. However, after the player applies the results of their roll, if there is
a sufficient amount of non-ID melee or missile hits to kill a dragon (or multiple dragons), then the dragon
is definitely killed, no choice
, followed by an example where the player decides not to kill the dragon by using IDs as saves instead of melee or missile, then followed by the example which is already there.

To you, who discussed and developed these rules, all this might be absolutely clear and impossible to be misunderstood, but if you place yourself into the position of a DD newbie, then I'm sure you'll find many more examples of these possible misunderstandings of the rules.

Well, maybe it's just my jarred mind???? Embarassed Rolling Eyes I don't know....

What do the others think about this??
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:53 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Racial abilities and other rules wordings Reply with quote

Too much for my sleepy brain to handle this morning, but I will touch on one point.
Deeghter wrote:

Reading the new rules (see above), then I think this rule is still applied since it says "... simply counting the icons rolled..." ?? Rolling Eyes


The important part here is the order of resolution.

Subtraction effects first.
Dividing effects next
Multiplicate effects
'Count As' effects (some old timers know this as convert, but that is a misleading term)
Addition effects.

thats why windwalks don't get counted as another kind of result.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:35 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Racial abilities and other rules wordings Reply with quote

Deeghter wrote:
Let's say I've cast a spell on a Lava Elf army at a highland terrain giving the army extra additional maneuvers (like e.g. Wind Walk, adding four maneuvers).
The old rules stated very clear (e.g. in the DCM) that "...spells that add automatic maneuver results (such as Wind Walk) aren't counted when determining the results of a special racial ability" including an example for that.
As Cliff said, the order of resolving results takes care of this. The old rules had to say this because they did not always follow the same order.

Deeghter wrote:
Important stuff like "SAIs don't work when rolled in the DUA, except "Rise of Ashes" .
Well, of course it makes sense that if a magician rolling a Cantrip in the DUA while attempting to roll a save to prevent from being buried due to a red Dragon Breath can't use the Cantrip because he's dead and there-fore isn't able to focus on the astral forces. But if he's dead, how can he roll for a save to prevent being buried?? Rolling Eyes
It might be stated somewhere in the rules that SAIs don't work when rolled in the DUA, but I couldn't find it anywhere.
This is not stated as such in the rules. It comes about because of the nature of the DUA. I will fix two places in the rules. First the SAI section will have a note about the DUA. Second the Glossary "DUA" will add a note.

Deeghter wrote:
The problem I'd like to point out is that if you're not completely familiar with the new rules yet it sometimes is almost impossible to find a quick answer to a question without reading almost the entire rules hoping that it is mentioned somewhere.

A few more repetitions in the rules would help a lot, even though I know that this would lead to more pages in the already "thick rules folder".
Or maybe those statements I mentioned above could be added to the Glossary which is second after checking the rules "headlines" and reading the appropriate parts in the rules.
This would be a nightmare to keep the rules up to date. If something gets said in multiple places and then gets changed, it's too easy to miss one. There are too many repetitions right now.

Deeghter wrote:
If it would say "..10 or more IDs, melee or missile results to slay a dragon" then it would be perfectly clear that IDs can also be used to kill a dragon! That's how I always played it of course but after re-reading the above rules during the game I got the idea that this might have been changed even though it is of course mentioned in the rules that IDs can be counted for everything you're rolling for! And the second sentence marked red even underlines that impression! See what I mean? By repeating "IDs" in this short part of the rules there wouldn't be any question! And by saying " A player has the choice if he wants to kill a Dragon or not. However, after the player applies the results of their roll, if there is
a sufficient amount of non-ID melee or missile hits to kill a dragon (or multiple dragons), then the dragon
is definitely killed, no choice
, followed by an example where the player decides not to kill the dragon by using IDs as saves instead of melee or missile, then followed by the example which is already there.
You are confusing icons and results. Ignoring for the moment SAIs and racial special abilities, during a dragon attack, only ID, missile, melee and save icons do anything. However, you are rolling for missile, melee and save results. IDs are not results, they have to be stated by the player as to which results they are (in a roll with multiple results). If you are only rolling for one thing, say, melee, then IDs are melee, and there is no confusion. But for a dragon attack, you are rolling for three different results. As I stated elsewhere, we added that last sentence in order to make it clear that even if you didn't want to kill a dragon, if you got enough melee or missile icons, those results would kill the dragon. I will reword that section a bit. I think what it should say is:

new wording wrote:
Each dragon is worth 5-health and has 5 automatic saves. Therefore, it takes 10 or more missile or melee results to slay a dragon. Melee and missile results cannot be combined to kill the same dragon. However, the player may kill multiple dragons using melee results for one or more and missile results for another (or more), as long as the results used to kill each dragon total at least 10 and are all of the same type (missile or melee). Note that if you have 10 or more melee results, or 10 or more missile results after applying any penalties, but without counting IDs (which could after all be applied to saves), then the dragon must be killed.

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Deeghter
rare



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Racial abilities and other rules wordings Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
The old rules had to say this because they did not always follow the same order.


OK! I see!

chuckpint wrote:
I will fix two places in the rules. First the SAI section will have a note about the DUA. Second the Glossary "DUA" will add a note.


Thank you Very Happy

chuckpint wrote:
Deeghter wrote:

A few more repetitions in the rules would help a lot,....
This would be a nightmare to keep the rules up to date. If something gets said in multiple places and then gets changed, it's too easy to miss one. There are too many repetitions right now.


Yes, I understand that. That's a point!!

chuckpint wrote:
I will reword that section a bit. I think what it should say is:

new wording wrote:
Each dragon is worth 5-health and has 5 automatic saves. Therefore, it takes 10 or more missile or melee results to slay a dragon. Melee and missile results cannot be combined to kill the same dragon. However, the player may kill multiple dragons using melee results for one or more and missile results for another (or more), as long as the results used to kill each dragon total at least 10 and are all of the same type (missile or melee). Note that if you have 10 or more melee results, or 10 or more missile results after applying any penalties, but without counting IDs (which could after all be applied to saves), then the dragon must be killed.


Great! That's clear enough! Razz

Thank you very much for your understanding, Chuck! Razz Razz
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