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jedijon
dragonsteed



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Moses Lake, WA

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:54 am GMT    Post subject: DDRPG Reply with quote

Dragon Dice™ RPG - The Sketch

This is an RPG - so its got all the trappings of games in that genre. As a player, youll be portraying a character in the game. For the purposes of the game, you and your character are synonymous. Youll choose your background and role within the world (race & class), what youre good at (Dragon Dice™ in your pool, abilities/skills, etc), and hopefully lots of extra interesting details that will make it fun for you to portray you during the game.

Making your Character
Choose a Race
Choose a Class
Roll your Statistics
Create your starting pool (1 Dragon Dice™ from among those allowed by your Race, 1 by your Class, 1 of your choice)
Choose TAbs (Threshold Abilities), Skills, Feats, HP, starting equipment/gear/wealth, Conscientiousness/Conviction scores

Playing the Game (combat)
Roll initiative (Roll one die, INIT MOD + MOV icons)
o If not flat-footed, you may choose to put the initiative die into your reaction pool
In descending initiative order, when it is your turn, you may
o Refresh your action pool (roll dice in your RP and move those with ID icon results into your AP)
o Act - take 1 movement & 1 action in any order, or 2 movements

Example action...
Select a TAb, and a number of dice from your action pool (between a minimum 1, and a maximum specified by each TAb [default is 3])
Roll the selected dice and count the number of icons (primary and secondary, if applicable) to determine if the threshold for that ability was successfully met
Add modifiers and primary icons & compare to the target value/defense. Exceptionally high or low values will modify the affects of the TAb
Determine the success or failure of the action, check for any abilities that may have triggered for either the attacker or the target(s).
Resolve the action and apply the results.
Place any dice that were spent during the action into the reaction pool.

What happens next...
As the game moves forward and you tell your story, you'll invariably encounter numerous challenges from which you will earn experience. This experience will allow your character to gain levels which will improve your abilities and survivability as well as gain access to more dice and larger dice. In addition, you will be able to learn more difficult TAbs which when selected are not only more difficult to complete but also correspondingly more powerful and effective.
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jedijon
dragonsteed



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Moses Lake, WA

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a few years away, I return to see we have an RPG product in the works. Hallelujah!

I'm not preacher - so I don't possess the skill to have a whole new idea ready to share every week...but I do have hold of the skeleton of a thing I've been wrestling with since probably 2008 or earlier. Chuck, I remember mentioning this to you in passing one night at Game's Plus in 2009 or so - and I can only say I wish I had a more complete presentation for you...at a less glacial pace.

Game design for me seems to require both sleepless nights & surplus energy - both of which I have, but only infrequently in conjunction.

The goal will be as it has always been = create another way to use these awesome dice...and forge the many many pages of ideas - the spreadsheets full of crunch - the corrupted files - the missing files - into something usable, interesting, and hopefully fun. Maybe even something called a "rulebook". Wink
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some 'private' work being done on Quests. I moved it so a smaller group could cram on it w/o lots of signal to noise issues.

would you be interested and willing to jump in and work hard and help us crank something out?
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jedijon
dragonsteed



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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Location: Moses Lake, WA

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:08 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff - I would be flattered and honored to be part of "official work". As I said, I'm not the fastest or most prolific creative around (but please don't lump me in w/George R. R. Martin's pacing!). And, I would guess that the game system proposed above and what ya'll are working on are fairly divergent entities! Still, I would be happy to cross-pollinate as applicable.

Continue to watch this space--there's lots more design concepts attached to the scion of this idea. Whether this exists as a 'Chainmail' to your 'AD&D', I do very much hope that after years trapped in the noodle, that this particular version ends up complete, whole, and playable.
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jedijon
dragonsteed



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:10 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAbs - the engine of DDRPG

Here's a glossary entry on one of the most important concepts in the game engine.

TAb (Threshold Ability). Most actions or abilities in the game are TAbs. Each Threshold Ability specifies the type of action it is, when it can be used, how many dice to exhaust when using it, and the number of icons required for a success. The required number of icons must be obtained during a single rolland it is this value that provides the threshold of success. This threshold of success is why they are named Threshold Abilities.


Here's an example:
Leif is attacking a goblin. He is skilled in several ways to damage the filthy beast and decides to go for a sliding strike so he can end his turn next to a nearby companion. Sliding strike is 2mel/1mov, so it requires 2 melee icons and 1 move icon be obtained during the action roll.

He makes the roll and gets 2 melee and 1 common ID icon which can be used as 1 move. Success!
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jedijon
dragonsteed



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote


Classes:PowerAgilityPresencePerceptionIntelligence . . . . MeleeRangedMoveMagic
WarriorXXXXX
BarbarianXXX
ArcherXXX
RogueXXXXX
ClericXX
WizardXX
SorcererXX
BardXXXX X
PaladinXXXX
DruidXX
AdeptXXX
MonkXXXX


Wow - sorry for that mess! And I thought it looked crazy in excel...

Well, it certainly isn't any more intelligible in BBCode, not that I'm a dab hand there! So, this was the list of main classes. About the only thing that survived some computer crashes and file corruptions from back in the very infancy of this game. THEN - this was a d20 variant game. It had just lost the Con stat...and has since not only stopped being a d20 game, but also lost the Presence stat (and renamed perception).

As you might imagine, that leaves the above information with rather less utility than originally designed! Since the above table shows that key stats for many classes were originally based on a now non-existent "presence" statistic.

The table was meant to visually show which classes used which stats and which types of icons--and give a space to tinker with those concepts and hopefully balance the amount of each...to more fully utilize the full spread of available dice.

Here were the alternate classes (I won't toss them in a table here--just too messy)

Empath
Explorer
Warlock
Shifter
Dervish
Knight
War Mage
Diplomat
Seer

Methinks this may have been a TAD too ambitious anyway Smile

Current design has me tinkering with ONE melee class and ONE magic class. Futher classes will be built off the template that arises from that study.
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jedijon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

RULEBOOK

Okay - so last week I started typing up a rulebook. I'd love to say the game is ready to play, but that would be overly optimistic. What I've focused on is explaining the concepts used in the game--the process of generating and leveling a character--and the mathematics that underpin the system in hopes that I will soon be able to generate a suite of abilities using this matrix.

Next steps therefore, include both describing the abilities specific to some pilot classes, enemies for them to fight, and a step by step description of combat, skills, etc.


A few areas are still fairly fragmentary but I can't justify holding the project in for the sake of polish. That part will come. Thanks for your interest so far, and if you'd like to check out the rulebook you can find it at the following link (PM me if you want to look over the rest of the current game projects on my website).

Dragon Dice™ RPG RULEBOOK
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jedijon
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:54 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the past week, not much in the way of sexy new advances on the rulebook - however, I did work on a section describing how to adjudicate the 'quality of a strike'.

Quality - a TAb that exceeds the target value has a good or fantastic quality, while those that do not meet this value have a poor or abysmal quality.

It seemed very important to base your ability to really miss a target on your own skill--therefore, the lower your skill level, the more likely that you'll not only miss (poor), but the abysmal quality will be a proportionally more likely result. I'm not quite ready to describe the exact nature of a fantastic quality--other than it preserves an interesting "risk/reward" mechanic.


In so doing, it seemed apparent that just ONE icon (remember, a roll is 1/2lvl + ability modifier + primary icon) either way makes a huge difference. When rolling just 3 dice - and needing a certain number of icons (say 3 melee)...setting the difficulty as close to 50% probability of success as possible, a +1 bonus increases your odds to 80%, and a -1 penalty gives you only around a 30% chance. TOUGH!

Still, that created a spreadsheet that can calculate the idea values for abilities, armor, and a bunch of other numeric stuff...AND...has sparked some exploration and now playtesting on what would happen with 4 dice.

I really don't want people to have to own 4 of every dice/player...so there's still some restrictions being built in to support diversity of dice selection. Still, 4 seems promising initially. This reduces the average integral discrepancy by .03 per result differential--that's about 20%. Also provides vastly more combinations of icon amounts to construct TAbs with. The current plan is still to start low and build higher--hopefully still capped at 10 dice in the CP.

New rulebook update inbound.
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jedijon
dragonsteed



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay - so, three updates to the rulebook since last post.

Everyone now has homework. Beta versions of the 'Warrior' and his opponent, the 'Goblin' are in the rulebook. Your homework is to create a warrior and fight a goblin. Fuller movement rules (edit: partially done) and other combat sundries (hope to) write up tomorrow.

Skills, and how many TAbs, and at what levels (edit: done), planned for future updates in the next ~week.

Here's the link again for those scrolling along at home.

RULEBOOK


Edit 2 - rulebook hits 12,000+ words.
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jedijon
dragonsteed



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same link as above - the first races have been added, classes tweaked slightly (more classes/races to follow), added a separate category of "push" TAbs - these are abilities that come with a cost.

Basically, standard progress...a little slower than I'd like, bought some chicks this past weekend and I'm building some chicken coops so time is limited.

I've reached out for feedback at a few other forums I belong to - and will do so at Enworld as well, again - I REALLY need feedback; particularly playtesting. If anyone is following along, I hope you're enjoying the updates. I'm hopeful that this will not only be finished--but finished with enough variety of player/GM options that this is a legitimate game.

I'd also appreciate an idea for the swampwalker / frostwing, and scalder dice for player characters. It might be best to wait till I codify the rest of the races. I've written two and have pretty firm ideas for 4 more. It might be hard for those following along to determine what I've got in my head for these--the races DON'T follow the Dragon Dice™ cannon--it's important to me that they primarily be archetypical - so that the widest variety of roleplayers can identify with the materials here. It's a combination of me running out of strong archetypes after the first 9 (it's EASY to create setting specific races--hard to create strong universal ones) and difficulty I have translating the SAIs or icons of the flying races to this design.

As I type, we're at 12.5 thousand words, hoping for another quick thousand in the coming week.

Enjoy! Happy St. Pats
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jedijon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skills share a great similarity across a wide range of fantasy RPGs - rather than creating lots of new ones (which it doesn't seem this game needs), I've combined them into even greater amalgamations - leaving about 1 dozen separate items.

Rules for exactly how to use each of those skills (and how to punt also) should be finished shortly.

Also - been doing some reading on 4th edition D&D and the problems the system has with changes in challenge (read game balance) not remaining constant as the players level. My particular philosophy is that the game should get ever so slightly MORE difficult as the players take on bigger challenges - requiring better luck, or more likely better tactics, as the game goes on. The level of difficulty should NOT become lower, nor should it slope more than about 10 degrees from start to finish.

So, in addition to putting the pen to paper with skills (no more sense-motive...are there really that many social interactions and/or real world basis for there to be a need for a concept that someone can be incredibly persuasive w/o having a clue what the other person is thinking---SO - it's diplomacy vs. diplomacy for us!), I've made standard damage tables and accompanying analysis of how that damage interacts with HP.

These tables show the progression of challenge at each level and enable YOU to help design player abilities and monsters as well. If you've been following along so far, you know that TAbs (or access to appropriate ones) grow over time to provide level appropriate damage for characters, and monsters use a similar system for their abilities. Here's the spreadsheet I use. Pick dice, set relevant icons to allow for a 40-60% chance of success, choose level appropriate damage expression from an appropriate band in the rulebook.

There's many more nuances - expected quality of action relative to damage expression (mostly mediated by the NUMBER of dice in the pool...which is why the goblin only has two), as long as 4 dice are selected, this is close to self leveling. From there the factors rapidly drop into the "very arcane", but play with it - and you'll discover them.

We're at 14,000 words and counting.
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jedijon
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same link - updated file. Now at ~18,000 word count (50pg).

New to this update are a more heavily playtested version of the TAb upgrades by level that avoids some mathematical difficulties of the prior version.

Also new is a fleshed out version of the social encounter rules. The 4 year old sketch I had in my brain finally got aired out and the bugs eradicated. You pick a color, size up your opponent...and roll/role. It's working pretty well so far, need to vet the math at a variety of levels.

Plus the template looks like a pentagram, so take that roleplaying misconceptions...
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep up the work. When things calm down in a bit I'll download and read the entire thing.
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jedijon
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 12:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Looking back - much later Reply with quote

The bones – create a new use for our Dragon Dice™ collections. A cooperative play experience focused on creating a story using characters.
Major objective – use only Dragon Dice™ / support a use for each type of die / make the player feel as though the dice they control represent their character
What do the types of icons do now?
• Melee – damage when terrain allows this form of combat
• Missile – damage when terrain allows this form of combat
• Saves – avoiding damage
• Maneuver – increase chance of favorable form of combat / win condition
• Magic – unlock effects when sufficient qty are obtained [gain advantage]
• ID – (wild) flexible based on situation
• SAI – many types, most allow to target and neutralize selected enemy assets of greatest concern
Questions—
• Can the icons continue to function as they do currently?
• Will terrain dice be involved? What do maneuver icons do?
• How are dice selected? How many does a player have access to? How do they lose access to them or how is damage handled?
• What rolls are involved?

So what’s a basic pitch for what can be done to create an RPG with Dragon Dice™? One thought would be to assign a few dice to your character and to roll some or all of them to face a challenge.
A brief aside about the older project--
Dungeons & Dragons may be the most well-known RPG and mechanically the basic premise is to announce an action, roll a dice, add a modifier that’s tied to your character (example, a strong warrior is good at lifting heavy objects and gets a bigger bonus than most when conducting this task), then compare the result to a target. The story that emerges is a function of the results of the chosen tasks. A common task is combat where the main action is contacting your opponent and how many such contacts [hits] are needed to successfully place them in your control [how much damage is dealt]. The specter of failure always looms as well.
I’ll note that I created a skeleton based on these very concepts. Stats were generated similarly to standard D&D. That there were less of them and different skills doesn’t change the mechanical bedrock. Attack actions were modeled after the 4th edition mold where each class has specific abilities that made them functionally similar—this worked well to give a purpose to each type of icon found on Dragon Dice™, one of our core questions. Mathematical choices were made to ensure that most combat actions would be successful – believing it to be more fun to succeed than fail – and the major source of tension was the ‘quality’ of the action determined the effectiveness. Greatly exceeding the needed threshold # of icons for any given ability would ensure it did the maximum damage. Barely exceeding the threshold had the opposite effect. At that point, standard dice were rolled to determine that damage.
In addition to the fact that this requires an extremely high number of abilities which was a burden to write the system (fair disclosure, this project wasn’t finished), it’s also evident that 4th edition D&D was not well loved by the roleplaying community. So implementing the majority of the mechanical complexity of this edition as well as adding two more highly complicated resolution layers (rolling a pool of dice and counting the icons to determine a “hit” vs just a d20 + mods) and then having to calculate the quality (vs just rolling for damage) onto each action was not a great recipe.
Back to the core of the ongoing project—
What will be done with melee icons? Movement icons? A major dissatisfaction with the prior version is that standard Dragon Dice™ has a perfectly serviceable purpose for melee icons. They’re damage. By rolling a numerical dice to determine damage, that original purpose is taken away. Still, standard Dragon Dice™ assumes an attack hits whenever it get at least 1 melee icon. It does not separate the concepts of accuracy and power in the way D&D does. Should an RPG follow in the original’s footsteps?
If melee icons = damage, then few character archetypes are possible. Some dice feature mostly all melee icons. Others a mix of melee and movement. With a few exceptions, the rest are a combination of melee, move, range.
In the 4th edition concept where each class has mechanical similarity, knowing that one character might roll 3 heavy melee dice (those ones that are mostly melee icons) and get an average of 4 melee icons while another character rolls three light melee dice (the mix of all three icons discussed so far) and get 1 melee icon and 1 move icon is a simple problem. If the first character can roll 3+ melee icons just allow them access to an ability that does approximately 4 damage. If the second character can roll a combination of 1 melee and 1 move, there can be a separate ability that allows the same approximate damage. There’s many different types of warriors. When this damage comes from rolling 1d6, the simplicity is maintained but there’s still more dice on the table and the impact of the Dragon Dice™ is lowered. In addition, the player will feel less like their character is described by their chosen dice.
However, if melee icons allow both the initial hit to occur and the damage as a result, then what about those characters that generate moves or mixtures of results? Are they only effective in certain situations and frequently outshone?
The only icons that are equivalent between types of dice are the ID icons. Each die has one. For the six-sided dice that means a 1:6 chance of obtaining an ID in each roll. Any mechanical concept that has a key objective of providing a level field for all types of dice would need to rely primarily on ID icons. Since all characters would want to be able to make an attack roll, these icons would be a way to accommodate that.
This still doesn’t provide a use for movement results. The prior version used movement as a type of magic. In standard Dragon Dice™ a magical effect can be selected when a threshold number of results are reached. Say 7 magic results are needed to summon a dragon. As described, damaged keyed to reaching a threshold of movement would be no different. All icons were treated this way. To avoid having to write what are effectively hundreds of spells, this threshold concept has to be avoided. So if melee and range results take effect after achieving a successful hit, magic will require a spell list, and saves (which are the rarest overall icon) may allow for small abilities to avoid damage, then what of movement?
First, all characters have to move. A mage or fighter won’t have many maneuver results if they use heavy melee or heavy magic type units as their dice. But if cavalry units had extra movement abilities it would be difficult to imagine how more than double the movement might translate into meaningful combat effectiveness. In standard Dragon Dice™, those movement results represented the ability to enhance what your other units were doing and to ultimately win the game. An army full of heavy melee units didn’t accomplish much if the opponent could keep the terrain they were at turned to missile. In fact, the most significant quality of heavy melee troops was that the upper faces of the dice allowed for melee and they could find a way to wrest control in the few turns needed. And since controlling the 8th face of two terrains allows a player to win, being able to conduct that last final maneuver is the utmost importance.
The design space created by keeping these concepts intact is that the enemy would find themselves at great disadvantage whenever they were outmaneuvered. But since combat isn’t between two armies but rather between a warrior, mage, and a bard vs. 4 goblin raiders it’s also difficult to picture how one player would content themselves to allow the warrior and mage to use their abilities effectively, prevent the raiders from keeping themselves in spear range, all while their bard may be taking no direct actions.
Some tentative parting thoughts—
Attack roll – roll 4 dice from your character pool. Count ID icons + the highest other single die + key stat vs defense [static]. If this hits, add ID icons + melee (or range) + damage mod [weapon].
Magic roll – roll 4 dice and count ID + magic results. Consult spell chart.
Maneuver roll – one character rolls many dice for moves at the start of each round vs enemies. Each other player also rolls one die. If the players win – enemies have disadvantage, the nominated character and each other character who obtained at least one natural move result have advantage. If the enemies win, they have advantage. Players whose characters have tons of moves should also be able to hit OK, but probably do little damage themselves (it’s important that they do say half of what a warrior would do so they don’t feel abused, like clerics can).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but did you just travel 7 years into the future w/o noticing? Wink

I am always glad to see interest renewed!
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