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Faces 2x magic...only? Why?

 
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Arkain
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Faces 2x magic...only? Why? Reply with quote

My friend and I have been playing a campaign and he made an astute point, that I agree with. Why do ID icons ONLY double for magic, of the same terrain color. And not for anything else?

We are playing a game in which oddly we both chose NO magicians, I went a calvary/missile, he is playing Treefolk calvary/heavy.

Tough thing is I don't have enough movement to outdo the treefolk special ability 2xcounter movement. Thus he has pulled the terrains into magic to avoid any missile barrages... terrains started low.

But magic with NO magicians and having 34 point army's and using at most 3 rares and rest uncommon/common, is not that hard. Except for black magic which doesn't double unless there are dead. He has pulled many dragons... I chose black but have still pulled one and done plenty of green "stuff".

Can anyone explain why this is... why do ID's only double magic and nothing else? The 8th face would be nasty though, for saves/maneuvers, x2 ID and x2 saves/maneuvers
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually a better question than you might think. When we were looking at the rules to balance play, and to streamline play, one thing that was on the table was to drop magic doubling. We didn't because if you do, the color of the terrains becomes meaningless, and we didn't want to go that far. But "too much magic" is a common problem with Dragon Diceā„¢ games. Turtling and casting damaging magic is another common complaint (there is an entire thread or two on this alone). BTW, a bit of history. When the game first came out, if you had matching color, you double all magic that matched the color, icons, IDs all of it. It was scaled back to just IDs. There was a suggestion to only double IDs of mages, but that is just too cumbersome in play.

So, I don't really have an answer for you. Of course you could always have house rule that doesn't allow any magic doubling. It makes Deadlands useless. And it makes Frostwings and Amazons mages just a little stronger (by making everything else weaker). But see how it plays.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Turtling and casting damaging magic is another common complaint (there is an entire thread or two on this alone).


And, just for new posters, this is what "playing Canadian" refers to. Smile

(Hi, Gord!)
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karoath
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of removing magic doubling completely (since it affects every race differently), perhaps instead of doubling, one of the following options could be possible...

1) Double all ids for ALL actions (melee, missile, maneuver, magic, saves). This would increase the chance of extremes for all results in the same way that id's currently affect magic. Ever since Charging has been removed, this seems especially important. Most of our games seem to be decided by magic instead of combat... even when we use no wizards! The problem with any doubling for any result is that it removes a certain level of strategic thinking by increasing the range of randomness (increasing dice results, thereby more often creating huge gaps between dice rolls). This could reduce the ability of players to utilize troops for specific purposes and instead increases the usefulness of 3 pt units. I don't particularly like the concept of doubling any ids for any results at all since it generates extreme results.

2) When an id for magic is rolled, the unit could be rolled again, adding any new magic results to the total. The problem with this is that it still can create massive magic rolls... or it could cause much lower results than from doubling. This would need tested and it certainly reduces the effectiveness of group monsters by giving the same ability to all wizards.

3) When an id is rolled, simply add +1 result per id rolled for magic. This shouldn't cause any more math issues than with doubling. Of all ideas, I feel that this one is the most viable and is the most likely to reduce the power of magic without causing disadvantages to any race, unit type, or dice type.

Anyway, let me know your feelings on these ideas. I am curious about anything I may have missed when considering these options.
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karoath
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "turtling" concept has caused Arkain and I to have too many stalemate games. This is completely due to the power of magic. When it is too risky to attack or if a player is unable to attack... simply pull back and do whatever possible with magic. The concept makes sense, but causes some games to be quite ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

karoath wrote:
The "turtling" concept has caused Arkain and I to have too many stalemate games. This is completely due to the power of magic. When it is too risky to attack or if a player is unable to attack... simply pull back and do whatever possible with magic. The concept makes sense, but causes some games to be quite ridiculous.


The CSDDG has solved the 'turtling' problem almost entirely. No matter what format of game we're playing on any given night, we set limitations on the number of magic units that an army can have. The most we ever allow is 1/2 of your army total, so in a 36h game, no more than 18h could be magic. Sometimes we set it even lower.

This is by no means a new idea, but it is very effective for reducing the use of magic in a game.

Another option is to disallow playing 'Canadian' at all. We've played many a'game where it was illegal to have more than 2/3 of your army at one terrain. That really takes the wind out of the sails of turtling.

On the other hand, if your opponent is playing with a lot of magic, load your army with a ton of melee and wipe him off the board. It's a well-known fact that magic-users aren't the best fighters, nor do they save all that well. That pretty much takes care of the magic. Even if they have an 8th, they won't save well enough to prevent all the damage unless they load up on magical saves, which means they aren't targeting you with Fingers or Strikes, etc.

The beauty of the game is that there are no limits to the options you can come up with.

Just my 2 bits.

Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We once tried some alternative army restrictions to stop the Canadians (in the case of the CWC, literally!). This is from the CWC page on the DDRC web site:

Optional army restrictions (in development): During game play, no more than half of a player's starting total health points may remain in any army (including reserves) at the end of that player's turn. Armies may exceed half of the original health points during a turn (due to healing, racial abilities, movement via spells or SAIs, etc.), but they must be reduced to no more than half-health by the end of the turn. This restriction refers only to a player's starting health (so that if a player is down to 18 health in a 36-health game, for instance, they may group their entire force together, since it is only one-half of their original army size). Dragonkin are not included in the above restrictions, but no more than one-half of a player's total starting kin pool may be in play at a single terrain at the end of that player's turn.

We tried them in a game, and they do add a strategic element to army movement-although they also add to the complexity of the game. As I recall, they worked fairly well in creating an active game.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

karoath wrote:
3) When an id is rolled, simply add +1 result per id rolled for magic. This shouldn't cause any more math issues than with doubling. Of all ideas, I feel that this one is the most viable and is the most likely to reduce the power of magic without causing disadvantages to any race, unit type, or dice type.

This has a huge unwanted side effect. It makes all common armies too powerful again. Doubling is at least neutral with regards to dice size. We worked way too long and hard to make all common armies less powerful to want to go backwards on that.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the issue about 1 point armies does indeed make sense! The suggestions about limiting points per terrain sounds like a very good idea, though. I'll have to try that one out some time.
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Arkain
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I have a new test to study for Laughing Wink

Arkain: Karoaths loyal test partner. Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karoath and I have been playing a lot, in our 4th campaign now, and once again we are at the conclusion that magic is WAY to powerful. We have had 1 pt armies non-magic armies getting good amounts of magic... or even just non-magic armies.

Has anyone tried this to see if it would work? Dragon Diceā„¢ has a lot of "halves", it's easy to work with and do. So why not instead of 2x magic, make it 1.5x rounded down... in other words count IDs 1pt = 1, 2 = 3, 3 = 4, 4 = 6... so on. Please if anyone has tried this....

I think we might try 2x the mages ONLY and other IDs only count for standard points. If you play Dragon Diceā„¢ enough, you know the mages. I mean this last game we played I had 10 pts of coral elf non-mages, and had them roll 6-18! points of magic. Those numbers are bases off one game which is a limited sample.

Majiken, thanks for the 2/3 idea, we both hate it at times... yet, it stops the stalemate games pretty nicely. I think it was you who posted else where for the 1st turn players get only ONE march.. thus toning down the "go first = win", which we are going to try in our next campaign.[/b]
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubling magic is one of those rules which makes the game too complicated (in my opinion) and magic too powerful. If magic is instead multiplied by 1.5 and rounded down it's even more confusing. However I understand that the color of the terrains should have an influence on the game.

Why don't you try this: Units cannot double magic, not even with their ID. Instead each casting cost is increased by 1 if the spell isn't cast in a terrain of it's color. So if your army is in a coastland terrain, it has to pay 6 magic for three Hailstorms (= 3 * 2; as usual). In a mountain terrain three Hailstorms would cost 9 magic (= 3 * 3), since mountains are not blue. The background: Units draw magical energy from the terrain they are in, so its easier to cast a blue spell in a blue terrain. And there is the strategical element that you can outmaneuver your opponents mages in his home terrain, so he has to go somewhere else. And suddenly his mages are not useful any more if he must stay in the wrong terrain.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea about simply adding 1 pt to the cost if at a terrain without the relevant element. I love Dragon Diceā„¢, but have found it rather annoying that you absolutely must take lots of magic in order to do well in most games. The game is intended to be about armies, yet we find most of our games controlled by armies of wizards instead of melee or missile. It all seems rather silly so we've been trying to find a customized method to balance the power of magic. Thanks for the input, I think we'll try this idea or some variation in our next campaign.
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Arkain
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost: very interesting I too like it.

Somethings though Chuck has pointed out earlier

Frostwing: now lose the disadvantage as being the only race not to 2x magic UNLESS they are at standing stones terrain... so I feel you need something to combat that... plus they also now have more of an advantage with the magic resistance. <edited> Amazons too are not as hurt by this cause they can can magic of whatever terrain they are at, thus more powerful.

Black magic: No terrain has black, thus death magic is now tougher. Deadlands.. sure, but now it costs 5 pts and can't be used that particular magic phase it's cast, and with moving the terrain, deadlands is taken away. This could be solved though by saying... once there are units in DUA this disadvantage is taken away so all death spells cost normal amounts.

Don't get my wrong though, I like the idea... VERY interest thought.

<Edited> One other thing... reserves. What counts do you use there? There is no "land" to draw magic from... all spells +1 from reserves?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you all that magic is very powerful. It has taken years to decrease its power. First was prevent doubling all icons, only double IDs. Second was increasing the cost of specific spells. Lightning Strike and Dancing Lights.

But there are definitely alternatives to combating the all mage army. Dragon Diceā„¢ games are largely affected by the terrain numbers in the beginning of the game. IF the terrains are low then the magic army is very powerful. It has the ability to bring all its units back and cast magic to damage opposing armies. If terrains are in the middle, a heavy missile army can destroy an opponent, but it still has to find a way to bury them, generally by magic. IF the terrains are high, a Heavy melee army with smite works great against mages. And don't forget the sneak attack abilities of the Dragon Slayer/Hunters and Dragon Lord/Masters. These are great for beating up mages. That was my strategy in the last worlds. Where ever the mages went, I went with my Dragon Hunters and Masters.
Destroy the magic users and they can't cast magic.

Just some insights from a long time player. Magic is powerful, just find ways to counter it.

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Arkain
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, Scott. I did a monster army and it was powerful against mages. Then Karoath did a missile SAI army with missile artifact and it was powerful too... destroyed me.

What kills us is 2x ID for magic in general. You can take a all common NON-mage army, and with 18 points to start on one terrain the average roll of ID's = 3, which is enough, cause of 2x, to start lightning strikes... most of the time we see above average rolls though.

This is where we feel it's over-powered. I just mailed Karoath asking to try something different to NOT make the game so magic oriented is to...

Heavy ID = 2x melee
Missile ID = 2x missile
Mage ID = 2x magic
Calvary ID = 2x maneuver
Light ID = 2x saves

The 6-sided dice are all categorized... things that we would need help with are light mages <undead>, light missile <frostwings, though I think uncommon/common heavy lights should be changed, but I digress>. The other thing we are discussing is how to categorized monsters.

You can only 2x ONE time with IDs, a so a light ID on and 8th face when rolling for saves is counted as normal, not x4, since saves are already 2x at the 8th face.

Also for a beginning player, this "when to 2x" might be confusing, but after playing for a while and consistently you do learn the game and the categories of the dice.

Thanks for the input... love discussing it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are still interested in the increased cost variant I can sum up some suggestions. It's up to you to develop the details. I have never played in this way, but for a first try I would use these four rules as a replacement for doubling magic:
1.) The cost of each spell is increased by 1 if the terrain doesn't have the relevant color. This does not apply to all spells, there are two exceptions:
2.) Spells which can be cast from the reserve area: Their price stays the same. So you always have to pay 3 to reanimate 1 health-worth of units, no matter if you are in the reserve or anywhere else.
3.) About black magic:
Quote:
This could be solved though by saying... once there are units in DUA this disadvantage is taken away so all death spells cost normal amounts.
It's a good suggestion, I would try it with this rule. Another possibility is that the price for black magic isn't increased at all.
4.) (If there is a price increase then) Frostwings and Amazons must always pay the higher price except in a terrain with Standing Stones.

It would be interesting to give each spell two casting costs, one for terrains of the same color and one for anywhere else. You can write it like this:
Summon Blue Dragonkin ...... Casting Cost: 4 (3)
The number in brackets is the reduced price. Blue Dragonkins are more willing to be summoned in a blue terrain. (Normally I would write 4/3, but this looks like Magic the Gathering, so I use 4 (3) instead.)
Breath of Life ...... Casting Cost: 3 (3)
This means, the spell isn't cheaper in a blue terrain and you don't have to pay more in the reserve area or anywhere else.
Night Moves ...... Casting Cost: 9 (6) Shocked
In this way the color of the terrains would play a more important role. Imagine a powerful spell which has the casting cost of 8 (3). It would be used almost exclusively in his terrain, but not outside. The only drawback is that it might be very difficult to find the right second costs without unbalancing the game. (And there is the second drawback that non-mages are not able to cast expensive spells any more. - But isn't this exactly what you want to have?)
If you want to playtest new (second) casting costs in your campaign it would be very interesting if you report the results here. I don't know either if this is a good solution, but it could go in the right direction.

(paragraph deleted)


Last edited by Autpost on Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:11 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkain wrote:
You are right, Scott. I did a monster army and it was powerful against mages. Then Karoath did a missile SAI army with missile artifact and it was powerful too... destroyed me.

What kills us is 2x ID for magic in general. You can take a all common NON-mage army, and with 18 points to start on one terrain the average roll of ID's = 3, which is enough, cause of 2x, to start lightning strikes... most of the time we see above average rolls though.

This is where we feel it's over-powered. I just mailed Karoath asking to try something different to NOT make the game so magic oriented is to...

Heavy ID = 2x melee
Missile ID = 2x missile
Mage ID = 2x magic
Calvary ID = 2x maneuver
Light ID = 2x saves

The 6-sided dice are all categorized... things that we would need help with are light mages <undead>, light missile <frostwings, though I think uncommon/common heavy lights should be changed, but I digress>. The other thing we are discussing is how to categorized monsters.

You can only 2x ONE time with IDs, a so a light ID on and 8th face when rolling for saves is counted as normal, not x4, since saves are already 2x at the 8th face.

Also for a beginning player, this "when to 2x" might be confusing, but after playing for a while and consistently you do learn the game and the categories of the dice.

Thanks for the input... love discussing it.


You are right that many armies without mages can generate magic. But fixing that is not so easy. Your suggestions are good and valid, but it makes the game very complex. Every player would have to know each face of every die just to make sure the right things are getting doubled. That is very complicated and would turn a whole lot of players off of the game. You have to realize from our perspective is that we have to keep it simple enough that beginning players do not get overwhelmed, and I know this could be an advanced option but even some advanced players including myself do not know the face of every die. I probably know 90-95% or so but not every one. This looks like it might be viable as a different format instead of part of the rules.

Scott C
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Arkain
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

Karoath has been busy so has not had a chance to reply to my e-mails. I'm assuming we will probably try just 2x mage IDs for double magic only excluding all monster and ALSO include Autpost's +1 spell point for all spells <initially>, when outside a spells color terrain. Reserves spells costing normal within reserves <2x ID's not an issue there> Hoping this is simple enough, not to make the game to complex.

We loved that idea Autpost, thanks GREATLY. Scott, I do agree that my 2x LIST Shocked was a little extreme. Embarassed We tend to learn the dice faces cause in our campaign we use exclusively 2 races for a good 16+ games. But after not using a race for that many games, I too have to go look face's up.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkain wrote:
What kills us is 2x ID for magic in general. You can take a all common NON-mage army, and with 18 points to start on one terrain the average roll of ID's = 3, which is enough, cause of 2x, to start lightning strikes... most of the time we see above average rolls though.

Two comments - 1) if you're playing against an all common army, Lightning Strike isn't real useful - it's an expensive way to (maybe) kill a common unit; 2) There are lots of spells and effects that can discourage the use of all common army - try to figure out some of those and apply them to reduce the frequency of all common armies
Arkain wrote:
Heavy ID = 2x melee
Missile ID = 2x missile
Mage ID = 2x magic
Calvary ID = 2x maneuver
Light ID = 2x saves
One of the players that I used to play with regularly really hate the idea of magic doubling (almost to the point of hating the use of magic period) so we tried out something similar to this. The main things I remember about the results were:
1. It slowed the game REALLY BAD. Having to figure out what each die was in every roll to determine what could be doubled dropped the speed to a crawl.
2. As you've already pointed out, there are problems with anything that doesn't strictly fit into the Missile/Mage/Cav/Light/Heavy categorization.
3. It was almost impossible to save against all damage if you were attacked by units that were doubling even if the attacker was the underdog.
4. The starting terrain roll actually became even more important. If you weren't first and it's can up with a face that favored your opponent, you might as well give up. "First strike" capability on melee or missile became an almost instant game decision maker due to the high losses.
5. Doubling and spell effects can lead to confusion, ex: what happens to a Heavy unit under the effects of a Burning Hands?

That doesn't mean there's not a way to make something like this work but there were a lot of unintended side effects. The mechanics of the game are actually pretty balanced right now, so as you work through or test ideas, you need to make sure to consider all of the possible consequences.
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