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'X' always wins - or does it?
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dolus wrote:
I'm curious about your results for stingers.
Its not as good as you would expect.

The problem with Stingers (besides immunity) is that they are easily prevented and don't save at all.

As a summary, the only thing Stingers beats consistently (>90%) is: Brain,Shell,Tentacle,Wings.

It lost consistently (<10%) to : Arm, Eye, Mouth,Pincer,Tail

Against the others (Leg,Lungs,Spike) it was only about 20% successful.

Here is a random example of one game. The Stinger loses because they all get wounded and don't have anything to roll prior to the poison killing the other player:

Game Initialized
Armies Loaded
Rolling for Initiative
Rolling Active Dice for Player1:,Leg,Leg,Stun,Dodge,Dodge,Dodge,Dodge,Stun,Stun,Stun,Leg,Stun,Stun
Rolling Active Dice for Player2:,Minus,Minus,Minus,Minus,Stinger,Minus,Stinger,Stinger,Minus,Minus,Stinger,Minus,Minus
Comparing Initative: 4 to 9
Player2 gets to go first!
Player2 Activated Dice
Rolling Active Dice for Player2:,Stinger,Stinger,Minus,Minus,Minus,Minus,Minus,Stinger,Stinger,Minus,Minus,Minus,Minus
Player2 puts out 9 regular minuses!
Player2 arrayed 4 attacks:(,Stinger)(,Stinger)(,Stinger)(,Stinger)
Player1 Activated Dice
Player1 minused:,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg
Rolling Active Dice for Player1:,Stun,Leg,Stun,Dodge
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player1 stunned:,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg
Player1 arrayed 3 attacks:(,Stun)(,Leg)(,Stun)
Player2 Activated Dice
Rolling Active Dice for Player2:,Minus,Stinger,Minus,Minus,Minus,Stinger,Stinger,Stinger,Stinger
Player2 stunned:,Stinger,Stinger,Stinger,Stinger
Player2 puts out 1 regular minuses!
Player2 arrayed 4 attacks:(,Stinger)(,Stinger)(,Stinger)(,Stinger)
Player1 Activated Dice
Player1 minused:,Leg
Rolling Active Dice for Player1:,Stun,Dodge,Leg,Leg,Leg,Dodge,Stun,Leg
Player1 is going to wound 4 poisoned body parts!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player2's Stinger breaks off and poisons Player1!
Player1 wounded:,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg
Player1 stunned:,Leg,Leg,Leg,Leg
Player1 arrayed 1 attacks:(,Leg)
Player2 Activated Dice
Rolling Active Dice for Player2:,Stinger
Player2 stunned:,Stinger
Player2 doesn't have any undamaged dice!
Game Finish - Player1Won!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a thought on the Stinger... There might be a logic problem in my AI.

Arraying an attack is optional. Once the foe is poisoned, that should be taken into account as it can't be avoided, thus not all Stingers have to be arrayed.

This would allow you to keep some in reserve for rolling and being damaged...

So I might rerun those numbers with that logic change.
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Dolus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking you wouldn't want to attack with all stingers because you would lose them and can't defend. You might choose to wound stingers and use minuses on your offensive roll. But in your one example, there's still an issue with stingers:

When I attack, you're taking damage, but I'm taking just as much damage.
When you attack, I'm straight up taking damage.
The damage I take from your attack can be offset by my stinger's poison, but we'll assume you'll end the poison at the same time. So the delay in poison is still an issue.

If the opponent can't block, then you would want to not use more stingers than half (rounded up) of their remaining dice, since you can finish off their remaining half with poison. But even so, this will only bring you to a close and lucky win.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. it evolves to a coin flip. So stingers are not over balanced, but they are slightly stronger than I might've lead someone to believe based on my previous post (which is based on arraying every possible attack)
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Dolus
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So thinking about single die strategies conceptually:

Bad Dice/Strategies:
BRAIN - Can only win with all minuses
WINGS - Can only win with all minuses
SHELL - Can't win.
TENTACLE - Tentacles lock up own dice and opponent's dice, so can only win with enough minuses

Poor/Unreliable Dice/Strategies:
LUNGS - Can only win with enough lungs (7 except against stinger)




STINGER - Poison - Poison takes out 2 dice, but is slow and sacrifices itself. Except for minuses vs stun and block, a tail is arguably better. 2 damage immediately and you don't hurt yourself.


So far nothing new, but I'll have to continue analysis on the rest later. They actually require work to analyze. Razz But so far I like mouths cause they can recover their stuns. I like tails because they're double damage. And I like arms because they have a 2/3 shot at defense and a 2/3 shot at offense. (Though only 1/3 shot at defense against eye and tail.)



ARM - Attack and Block
EYE - Attack and Block
LEG - Attack and Dodge
MOUTH - Attack and Recover
PINCER - Attack

SPIKE - Attack and Block
TAIL - Attack and Block
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are doing the analysis theoretically, I choose to do it empirically(because I wanted to develop an AI )

Here are the results of my empirical method (average of 100 games). rows are victory and columns are losses. i.e. Brain wins against Arm 0% and Brain loses to Eye 100%.

The two don't always add up to 100% because some games 'timeout' after 300 turns and neither player can win.


Arm Brain Eye Leg Lungs Mouth Pincer Shell Spike Stinger Tail Tentacle Wings
Arm X 1 0.11 0.98 0.87 0 0 1 1 1 0.4 0.99 1
Brain 0 X 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.01 0 0 0
Eye 0.89 1 X 0.01 0.75 0.05 0.25 1 0.69 0.91 0.21 1 1
Leg 0.02 1 0.99 X 0.84 0.53 0.51 1 0.32 0.78 0.56 1 1
Lungs 0.13 1 0.25 0.16 X 0.06 0.02 1 0.17 0.76 0.17 0.2 0.96
Mouth 1 1 0.95 0.47 0.94 X 0.57 1 1 0.99 0.14 1 1
Pincer 1 1 0.75 0.49 0.98 0.43 X 1 1 0.96 0.11 1 1
Shell 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 X 0 0 0 0 0
Spike 0 1 0.31 0.68 0.83 0 0 0.06 X 0.79 0.03 0.93 1
Stinger 0 0.99 0.09 0.22 0.24 0.01 0.04 1 0.21 X 0 0.96 1
Tail 0.6 1 0.79 0.44 0.83 0.86 0.89 1 0.97 1 X 0.99 1
Tentacle 0.01 1 0 0 0.8 0 0 1 0.07 0.04 0.01 X 1
Wings 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 X

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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 10:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

to keep these (one die) degenerat fiends (is that redundant?) from being spawned there should be a rule stateing each fiend must consist of more than 1 type of die. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
to keep these (one die) degenerat fiends (is that redundant?) from being spawned there should be a rule stateing each fiend must consist of more than 1 type of die. Twisted Evil


Is it a bad thing if I want to play with a 13-armed daemon?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:45 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not bad, but it has no pluses or minuses. The minuses don't matter that much. But without pluses, nothing can be brought back. So it's a great daemon for offense and defense, but if you do get some stunned dice, it starts going downhill quickly.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
to keep these (one die) degenerat fiends (is that redundant?) from being spawned there should be a rule stateing each fiend must consist of more than 1 type of die. Twisted Evil
Thats the 'easy' solution, but I'm trying not to put an arbitrary restriction in place. These types of daemons are min/max designs. You either do well or you fail. A balanced design should always be able to come out ahead in the long run.
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Dolus
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Not bad, but it has no pluses or minuses. The minuses don't matter that much. But without pluses, nothing can be brought back. So it's a great daemon for offense and defense, but if you do get some stunned dice, it starts going downhill quickly.


Exactly. I don't see a reason why we need to enforce that you can't come in with 13 dice of one body type. It can be strong, but can also have major weaknesses and falls quickly.
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