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Possible changes to Shell and Stinger
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:57 am GMT    Post subject: Possible changes to Shell and Stinger Reply with quote

Shell seems to be too powerful. That icon comes up and it stops an attack with 2 stun, 1 wound, and 3 pluses. Yes, it's happened. So we were thinking about making Shell be a deflect with 1 or 2 built-in pluses. Still able to stop most attacks, but a really powerful one would force you to add some pluses, or other deflects. Also we talked about the Buckler being similar to the Shell (deflect with pluses), but the Shield able to block everything no matter how powerful. That would make those two items different.

Stinger has a couple of problems. First and biggest, is the way it's currently worded, if you use it on a daemon that is immune to your poison, you cause a stun, the poison has no effect, and then the stinger is wounded. Ouch, you give a stun and take a wound. Why would anyone use that? Second is the on-going poison. You have to remember somehow that the poison effect is there and apply it every turn. So the thought is that you can use the stinger as simply a stun, and then the attacking player decides whether or not to inject poison. If the stinger injects poison, it's stunned, and the other player (if not immune to that poison) takes a wound (that's in addition to the first stun). So if the poison is used, the defender takes a stun and a wound, the attacking player's stinger is stunned. So no on-going effect that has to be tracked.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were any of these tried at GenCon? Both seem reasonable to me (although we haven't played with items since we were trying out various body part combos).

Would Shield still have the stun attack, or would the fact that it now blocks anything and is differentiated from Buckler be enough?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:12 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Possible changes to Shell and Stinger Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Shell seems to be too powerful. That icon comes up and it stops an attack with 2 stun, 1 wound, and 3 pluses. Yes, it's happened. So we were thinking about making Shell be a deflect with 1 or 2 built-in pluses. Still able to stop most attacks, but a really powerful one would force you to add some pluses, or other deflects.

Sounds okay to me.

Quote:
Also we talked about the Buckler being similar to the Shell (deflect with pluses), but the Shield able to block everything no matter how powerful. That would make those two items different.

The buckler and shield are already different (shield can also be used as a stun attack). If you keep the shield as is but nerf the buckler, there is absolutely no reason to use a buckler. (actually there isn't any reason to currently either)

How about: buckler is deflect or stun, while shield just stops any attack.

Quote:
Stinger has a couple of problems. First and biggest, is the way it's currently worded, if you use it on a daemon that is immune to your poison, you cause a stun, the poison has no effect, and then the stinger is wounded. Ouch, you give a stun and take a wound. Why would anyone use that?

You can ignore any of your rolled results, so you could just not attack with the stinger in that case (unless of course the extra stun would wipe out your opponent).

Quote:
Second is the on-going poison. You have to remember somehow that the poison effect is there and apply it every turn. So the thought is that you can use the stinger as simply a stun, and then the attacking player decides whether or not to inject poison. If the stinger injects poison, it's stunned, and the other player (if not immune to that poison) takes a wound (that's in addition to the first stun). So if the poison is used, the defender takes a stun and a wound, the attacking player's stinger is stunned. So no on-going effect that has to be tracked.

I would say the poison happens automatically (that's the point of a stinger, right?).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both very good points, and those sound like potentially good solutions. The shell being as powerful as it is was a bit irritating, and discourages using dice such as spikes since you can have so many dice countered by one die by itself.

And I experienced that issue in my online game with the stinger where I would apply minuses to my stingers because I risked wounding my stinger and only getting a stun out of it. Another possible fix to this is to simply not allow that part of the stinger to take affect if the opponent is immune. It feels almost like a patch, but since you can't be poisoned, simply not allowing the stinger to break off and poison the enemy is an option.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The easiest change to shell would be that it can block any attack. That will still be unique to the game. So if I use an eye and have one + on it then I would need a shell with 2 +'s. All the same if I attack with a sweep then then shell could block that or if I attack with a deflect with one + I could block with a shell with one +. Its still good and does something unique and yet its not seriously powerful.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are describing a deflect. The Arm does that, it can stop any type of attack. The Shell currently does a lot more. It stops any attack irregardless of type, bonuses, and other addons.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH, I had no clue the arm did that. Hey come on man you guys gave me 1 hour of training and then told the crowds to have at it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

An hour really? Next year I'll have to cut that training time in half.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly got training? Sad
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, He lay on a bed while I did a demo in the hotel room for all the volunteers.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHAT A BUNCH OF MALARKEY!!!

To bad this is a public forum...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
WHAT A BUNCH OF MALARKEY!!!

To bad this is a public forum...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, back on track.

Below is a proposal based on all the verbal and written conversations for each of the symbols being discussed.

Compare these against existing die like Pincer and Mace to see if you'd use both in different circumstances.

In summary: Shell is nerfed. Buckler is an updated Arm. Shield is an upgraded Shell. Stinger removes the enduring effect and has an optional part. Dart is an upgraded Stinger.

Note: these may need to be tweaked to match the wording style of all other symbols (damage, attack, etc)

Shell: A daemon's Shell is a Deflect with a built-in plus (boost)!

Buckler: The Buckler can be used as either a stun attack with a built-in plus (boost) or a deflect with a built-in plus (boost).

Shield: The Shield can be to avoid one attack regardless of that attack's damage, boosts, or type (even a ray or sweep).

Stinger: The Stinger is a stun attack. If it is not defended, the attacker can choose to inject poison into its victim. If poison is injected, then the Stinger is immediately stunned and the victim suffers a wound in addition to the stun.(If not immune to the poison).

Dart: The Dart is a wound attack. If it is not defended, the Dart injects poison into its victim and is immediately dropped (stunned). If the victim is not immune to the poison, they suffer an additional wound.

Note: if the Shield is still too strong, it could be made to have two boosts instead.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the stinger should be a choice; it should always inject poison just like the dart does. Honestly, if someone uses stingers then they are expecting to poison their victims (i.e. that was their reason to choose that die over others). Thus, they will also be expecting that those stingers will end up stunned and will have built in some recovery.

Also, remember your argument about Rot that you didn't want to interupt someones turn with back and forth between the players? This would be adding in another of those instances.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
Also, remember your argument about Rot that you didn't want to interupt someones turn with back and forth between the players? This would be adding in another of those instances.
I'm not seeing this. Where is the back and forth? The attacker with the stinger simply states whether or not it's injecting poison. And it's important in multi-player games. One daemon you are attacking could be immune to your poison, while another may not be. So you want to do the first stun, but in order to avoid stunning the stinger, you don't inject poison you know your opponent is immune to. It's actually fairly common among snakes that they can choose to inject venom or not.

So the idea is, that when you inject poison, you deplete your venom, and the stinger is stunned until it's refilled. Also, your assumption that the stinger is picked to do the poison is incorrect. In our play-tests at the boy scouts, they picked that die because all the other sides are minuses. Then they used the "weasel-rule" to ignore the stinger results.

The dart has no choice simply because it's not a body part. It's mechanical so it always injects when it hits.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
piMaster wrote:
Also, remember your argument about Rot that you didn't want to interupt someones turn with back and forth between the players? This would be adding in another of those instances.
I'm not seeing this. Where is the back and forth?
I remember what he's referring too. I was attempting to avoid having to stop in the middle of my turn to have my opponent make a decision. Just like I am trying to avoid having to remember anything that is not apparent from just looking at the dice.

The original idea was that I can start and stop my turn w/o actually speaking to you... in this case, that rule might be worth breaking.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
I'm not seeing this. Where is the back and forth?

In the Daemon Diceā„¢ Rules 1.0b thread, page two, Cliff's post.

So another question then is: When exactly in the turn sequence does the attacker make this choice? From its inital read, it seems like the same time as choosing Brain-guided attack targets.

Also, for the Shield, I think making it a deflect with 2 or 3 built-in boosts would be better (and more consistant with the other dice effects - no unlimited power).
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:

Also, for the Shield, I think making it a deflect with 2 or 3 built-in boosts would be better (and more consistant with the other dice effects - no unlimited power).


It would 'scale' better to not be unlimited, I didnt' want to make it 'boosts are doubled' because I like keeping that an attack only ability.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
The original idea was that I can start and stop my turn w/o actually speaking to you...

Well that idea is already out the window with Targeted Minuses and Brain-guided attacks. Don't whether or not you would consider Mouth, Fester, and Blood to go against this idea since the turn player doesn't need to interact with another player to resove those effects.

And just to make another point about rot (why I'm bothering I don't know), you could make it the victim's choice which occurs at the beginning of the victim's turn. Last thing on your turn or first thing on my turn is equal.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
you could make it the victim's choice which occurs at the beginning of the victim's turn. Last thing on your turn or first thing on my turn is equal.
I know, I think it needs the extra power of being targeted by the aggressor.
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