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Champion Army
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dougelf
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 2:09 am GMT    Post subject: Champion Army Reply with quote

Just wanting to also make sure i didn't miss anything but i can field one of each champion type Dragon Hunter, Dragon Zealot, Dragon Master, Dragon Slayer, Dragon Crusader, Dragon lord per 24 points. Which they are 4 points each and 6 types so it should be doable to field a solid Champion army.

Just seems a bit odd though also that it is possible due to all the sneak attacks and how each unit has a high save chance.

Was wanting to make sure before putting this theme army together that there wasn't some rule i missed.

You can bring at most one (unit type) (of each color) for each 24 health of battle size (i.e., the same as the required 
number of dragons).  The maximum number of (unit Type) of each color in an army is equal to the number of 
dragons you must bring.

is how it was worded also making it limited to each type.

This was just a fun themed army idea.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you have it right. While they are great on melee and Sneak Attack is nasty, they would lack magic and maneuver. Which seem to be the two things that are needed for an army to win.

So let us know how that works for you. Serious here.
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dougelf
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 4:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ordered the dice so i can build it now i just have to wait for them to arrive from my local game store.

Going with:

1x Dragon Hunter
1x Dragon Zealot
1x Dragon Master
1x Dragon Slayer
2x Dragon Crusader
2x Dragon Lord
1x Gold Medallion

it should be interesting since you are correct it is weak in maneuvers but looks good for Melee and Saves with decent magic.

Melee 19.00 5.95 13.05 to 24.95
Missile 6.33 4.26 2.08 to 10.59
Magic 14.67 8.54 6.13 to 23.20
Maneuver 11.33 5.31 6.02 to 16.65
Save 19.00 5.57 13.43 to 24.57

i ordered the sets so i can just swap out colors if needed until i figure a good mix but it seems going with blue might be the best options due to the 14.67 magic average allows for 2x lightning bolts and with the Sneak attacks it should allow for fast kills. Then again there is pretty much a ton of options since majority of the army are any color units.
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 6:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my 0.02 of your local currency here for a strategy to consider. I would think about "hiding" these guys in reserves until the terrain got up to melee, then "release" them to that terrain(s).

The biggest problem I see with the army is once you lose one of these guys (as with any 4 health die), it is nearly impossible (without a bunch of mages or trolls) to roll enough magic to get them back.

Good luck. Please keep us posted.

Thanks for your interest.
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 7:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have some dragon kin, i'd add dragonfoals/dragonmounts/dragonsteeds to your army. They'd help add some extra maneuvers, and with the fair amount of cantrips in the army it'd help bring them in.
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dougelf
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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2016 5:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just my 0.02 of your local currency here for a strategy to consider. I would think about "hiding" these guys in reserves until the terrain got up to melee, then "release" them to that terrain(s).

The biggest problem I see with the army is once you lose one of these guys (as with any 4 health die), it is nearly impossible (without a bunch of mages or trolls) to roll enough magic to get them back.


Sneak attack works best on magic and ranged rolls other wise it counts as melee. The gold medallion has a 25% chance of bringing one back and the average magic roll should be around 14 so odds are i can bring one back making it so i have to take more than 7 damage to lose more than 1 unit.
Quote:

If you have some dragon kin, i'd add dragonfoals/dragonmounts/dragonsteeds to your army. They'd help add some extra maneuvers, and with the fair amount of cantrips in the army it'd help bring them in.

I plan on using Dragon kin but at the current own none and will be ordering a few kickers in two weeks.

I was looking at that also since the eldarim work very well with dragonkin.

One aspect about the magic that is nice will be summoning my opponents dragons to the field due to majority of the army is any color for magic.

Downside is i should lose the ability to go first unless i get really lucky meaning i can take losses on round 1.

Thinking of going Temples for the forced burial since i won't be really doing ranged and the ability to promote is lost along with doubling magic due to the units already will be able to for any color due to being primarily white.

Dragon kin i plan to run:

1x Dragonkin Champion
1x Dragonsteed
1x Dragonmount
3x Dragonfoal

will bring knolls as the minor terrains due to the damage is the easiest to avoid and then i can call ranged or a sneak attack/cantrip roll and possibly some damage on ranged.

Still really up in the air for which colors to go though for terrain.

I only will have 3 of the units needing a color due to the rest are white and at 36 points i only need 2 units of color the rest can be white.

I was thinking Flatlands.

would like to hear what suggestions are out there.

average sneak damage should be around 8 on average during a magic or ranged roll.

i get a 1:4 of getting magic from a minor so i still have to be reliant a lot on the cantrips which is only on 3 dice unless i run double masters which would make it 4. Still small for reliant on magic. Which keeps me eyeballing highlands but with highlands i lose out on blue.

Blue and Gold also allows me to use magic to control the maneuvers since it is lacking in the army. Blue to increase and Gold to decrease.

Highlands i keep looking at also due to gold and high magic.
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 8:12 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Champion Army Reply with quote

dougelf wrote:
You can bring at most one (unit type) (of each color) for each 24 health of battle size (i.e., the same as the required number of dragons).  The maximum number of (unit Type) of each color in an army is equal to the number of  dragons you must bring.


To give some history, that rule was originally put into effect when Sneak Attack also worked during a save roll. That made it very nasty and while it was a strong army, I did beat it several times through some creative unit maneuvering.

When sneak attack was reduced by giving it no effect during a save roll, this rule was never revisited. It is 'on my list' as one of the build restriction rules I'd like to try to remove at some point.
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dougelf
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay the dice came in today and i put the army together and went gold/red highland to test.

Went vs a 36pt dwarf army that was 18 magic 18 melee.

All highlands for terrains. roll was 3/1/6 for terrains with 6 being their home.

oddly enough vs a dwarf army i went first they just rolled horrible.

I can see the fight being over in 8 rounds tops dwarf win but the person i was playing against was new and was making a ton of mistakes. So they surrendered on turn 5 with their home terrain at an 8.

The reason i won is they got over whelmed due to Sneak Attack kills no save and they where not playing to the best of what they should have.

I explained after the game what they should have done and what they should have been casting. So they could learn and it is a player i really need to play their army vs one of mine that actually is well put together so they can see the several options they are missing. I think the 8 anti dragon units befuddled them a bit since they where used to summoning dragons to kill their opponent.

Personal review. the army is bad on magic and maneuvers and going sneak kills is pretty much a waste of a win strategy since out of 5 rolls i netted only 4 sneak attacks. so 10% of the time i rolled it.


The dwarf army had me in maneuvers and saves they should have just gone for a 2 terrain at an 8 victory. Instead of attempting to getting into a magic war with me.

I'am going to try this army out on thursday against a few others to see how it does. On a positive note it did get several new players to buy champion sets and start running 2 in 36-50pt armies.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 9:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay the dice came in today and i put the army together and went gold/red highland to test.

Went vs a 36pt dwarf army that was 18 magic 18 melee.

All highlands for terrains. roll was 3/1/6 for terrains with 6 being their home.

oddly enough vs a dwarf army i went first they just rolled horrible.

I can see the fight being over in 8 rounds tops dwarf win but the person i was playing against was new and was making a ton of mistakes. So they surrendered on turn 5 with their home terrain at an 8.

The reason i won is they got over whelmed due to Sneak Attack kills no save and they where not playing to the best of what they should have.

I explained after the game what they should have done and what they should have been casting. So they could learn and it is a player i really need to play their army vs one of mine that actually is well put together so they can see the several options they are missing. I think the 8 anti dragon units befuddled them a bit since they where used to summoning dragons to kill their opponent.

Personal review. the army is bad on magic and maneuvers and going sneak kills is pretty much a waste of a win strategy since out of 5 rolls i netted only 4 sneak attacks. so 10% of the time i rolled it.


The dwarf army had me in maneuvers and saves they should have just gone for a 2 terrain at an 8 victory. Instead of attempting to getting into a magic war with me.

I'am going to try this army out on thursday against a few others to see how it does. On a positive note it did get several new players to buy champion sets and start running 2 in 36-50pt armies.
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 10:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

just want to also make sure i am not screwing it up either on counting for magic.

I think i am though. The cantrip on Dragonlord/Dragonmaster units only have a cantrip face i have been counting them as 4 magic but i think they are only 2 due to like the vampire they only have one magic face which would be cantrip which is only worth 2 magic points.

Is that correct to run as 4 or should i run as 2?
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cantrip on the Lords and Masters counts as 4 point of SAI magic, unless rolled during a magic roll, and then they count as 4 points of regular magic.

The TSR/SFR logo on the Masters counts for 2 points of whatever you are trying to roll for (including magic during a magic roll).

The TSR/SFR logo on the Lords counts for nothing.

I am not sure exactly how your game went, but you saying that Sneak Attack "overwhelmed" your opponent leads me to believe you might not be playing Sneak Attack correctly. Keep in mind that Sneak Attack only counts as unsaveable melee damage to an opposing army (meaning an army at the same terrain as your Lord/Master army) while that Lord/Master army is making a roll that is NOT a melee attack. Example, your Lord/Master army is at a terrain with the missile face showing and shooting missiles at an army at an adjacent terrain, and one of your Lords/Masters rolls Sneak Attack. Then the Sneak Attack takes effect against an army that is at the same terrain (which was NOT the army you were originally targeting with the missile attack). So in this case, you would kill 4 health from the other army that is at the same terrain as you, and then resolve the missile damage against the original targeted army (and potentially killing units from two different armies in one attack). Does that make sense? If there isn't an army at the same terrain as your Lords/Masters army, then your Sneak Attack would do nothing. It would not affect the army you were shooting at, because it is at a different terrain.

Of course, the army you target with missiles can be one at the same terrain as your Lord/Master army, and in that case, the sneak attack would still work against that same army. In that situation, the end result would kinda be like as if you rolled a Stone SAI, even though the way to get there is different (Stone is a Missle SAI and Sneak Attack is a Melee SAI that works during missile attacks). When I say Sneak Attack is a Melee SAI, I mean that it follows the rules of Melee... can only be applied against an OPPOSING army... meaning, an army at the same terrain as your army).

Sneak Attack would also work if you were casting magic. The SAI damage would affect an army at the same terrain as your Lord/Master army that was rolling for magic. Of course, in order to do this, you would have to be at a terrain on a magic face (or an 8th face that YOU captured).

The reason I am specifying all of this is for this reason: If your Lord/Master army was at a terrain captured by your opponent, then there is no way that Lord/Master army could get usable SAI results from Sneak Attack (meaning, the kill no saves possible effect), because your army would only be able to take a melee action (since it is your opponents 8th face, not yours), and sneak attack only provides normal melee results during a melee attack.

In my opinion, Sneak Attack is a great SAI, but its not really one that I could see overwhelming anyone. It can certainly change the course of a game, but it would be more from an unexpected result (which fits its name!). But its not the kind of SAI that can really be used as a sole strategy to victory. Regeneration, yes. Smite, yes. Rend, yes. Even Cantrip, probably. There are SAIs out there that you can completely base an army strategy on. I don't know that Sneak Attack, by itself, is one of those SAIs. However, its only found on the Eladrim Champions, which have other great SAIs, so you are really basing a strategy using those dice on their total package, not just Sneak Attack.
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 8:37 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry... I misunderstood your question about counting magic on the Lords/Masters. I now believe you were talking about Army construction and abiding by the 18 health (or half total army health) magic units rule.

Masters definitely count as 4 points toward the 18-health limit: "When determining the magic point value of a monster or artifact, each face with a normal magic icon counts as one point and each face with a Cantrip, Create Fireminions, or other potentially magic-generating SAI counts as two points. The magic point value of a monster or artifact is the sum of these values, up to a total of four points." Cantrip is a magic producing SAI, so that is 2 points. TSR/SFR logo is also a magic producing SAI, so that is 2 more points. Total is 4 points.

The Lord is different though, and I didn't realize this myself, but I am thinking it only counts as 2 points. Its TSR/SFR logo does nothing, so it really only has Cantrip, which gives it a value of 2 points.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sneak Attack: Special (missile action or magic action); Normal (melee attack or dragon attack)
During a missile or magic action, immediately kill up to four health-worth of opposing units in any army, with no save possible. The owner of the unit with this SAI selects the target army; the target army’s owner selects the
unit(s) killed. Any Dragonkin selected as casualties are immediately buried. During a melee attack or a dragon attack, Sneak Attack generates melee results.


Due to the exact wording on Sneak attack unless it was edited and not updated in the latest rules it doesn't just target the army in melee range it can be any army which allows it to go vs home, campaign, hoard and reserve locations.

I have to agree base on wording i think they are only worth 2 magic for army construction.

They have a high melee and save with so/so magic potential but due to the horrible maneuver results they generate it makes it easy to beat by just going to 8 faces.

It is a fun concept army and when running dragonkin in the mix they can sort of generate some maneuvers but they normally should lose out to any decent army.

It is at least getting people to learn about the other dice out there since we have over a dozen new players at my game store now with in the last 2 months. Mind it is the only game store in my state that even carries the product that i know of and has players but I am in hope we might dredge out some of the older ones so they show up and we can get it going stronger.

The dwarf player i went against wasn't using their army correctly which next time i see them i will hand them one of the constructed armies i use that does well and see about running their dwarf army vs it so they can get an idea of how to run a dwarf army. I have a lava elf army that is easy to run that they should be able to try vs their army.

They should have maneuvered me out since we use straight highlands and then just bumped with stone skin spells and just ran up the terrains since there was no way for me to stop them.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key words in the rule you quoted are "opposing units".

Opposing units must be at the same terrain as the acting army, by definition. "Any army" in this sense means you could attack any army of opposing units (at the same terrain) (which would come into play in a multi-player game where there could be three or more armies at the same terrain). It does not mean any army in the game. The army must be composed of opposing units, which, in Dragon Dice™, means at the same terrain as the acting army.

I only know this because I played it like you, for the same reasons, and was "enlightened" by the elders. Same as you, I got hung up on the "any army" thing, when the real key to it was "opposing units". I believe the SAI could be worded better, and I think they will eventually tweak the wording at some point, but the intent will likely remain the same. A Melee based attack shouldn't affect units "far away". In Dragon Dice™, the way those kinds of concepts are enforced is by terrain location of armies and units. Same terrain means Melee range. Not at the same terrain means you can't Melee that army or those units. It makes sense from that perspective.

Also, consider game balance. Sneak Attack would be greatly over-powered if it worked as you are playing it. And I think your own personal results back that up.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:

Also, consider game balance. Sneak Attack would be greatly over-powered if it worked as you are playing it. And I think your own personal results back that up.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:17 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to completely clarify, here is the Dragon Dice™ definition of the word "opposing":

Quote:
Opposing: An enemy unit, army, dragon or other component located at the same terrain as your own army.


This term is used in the description of Sneak Attack.
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 8:31 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
I believe the SAI could be worded better, and I think they will eventually tweak the wording at some point, but the intent will likely remain the same.


I'm going to 'tip my hand' a little and share this. We are in the midst of tweaking the wording of LOTS of things to help with these type of 'hidden glossary' rules and change a few other things.

I'm preparing for a 'no charging/routing' type of lash back, but everyone deals with change in their own way.

So in the near future, sneak attack will look similar to this:
Quote:
Sneak Attack: (dragon attack, magic, melee, missile)
During a missile or magic action, Sneak Attack does X damage to an opponent’s army at this terrain with no saves possible. Dragonkin selected as casualties are buried.
During a melee attack or a dragon attack, Sneak Attack generates X melee results.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Running it as the SAI is supposed to in 36 point matches the army is still un-beaten.

Issue i have been seeing. The army can be beaten still by getting 2 dice to the 8th phase the problem is what is tripping them up is focusing on being afraid to drop dragons vs it and that confuses them along with needing heavy magic to kill one unless they are blue and they are not attempting to out maneuver but instead try and go brute force or ranged.

I've been hitting their caster armies with dancing lights to halt easy spell kills also.

The army has a high save and you have to do more than 3 damage to kill a unit. I have lost a few units also but the gold medallion has been helping in getting units back from time to time.

Any army with blue or high maneuvers would just destroy this army every time but no one has tried that. Either out maneuver it or just lightning bolt the crap out of it and it should go down.

Fastest win with them was round 1 two terrains came up 6 at start they moved them to 7's did melee vs me and i took no loses but they did from Bash and my counter attack my turn i won the maneuver on luck and was done. Was vs a lava elf army.

Most wins though from this army have been from them retreating to one terrain and i maneuver up the other 2 nearly uncontested until it hits melee for my armies. From there i have been smashing them in melee and winning through hitting 8's.

The players at my store mainly just need to change from the standard tactic of fall back to one terrain and go into spell combat that has been hurting them.

I'am running red, gold and white for the Stoneskin, Path, Transmute Rock to mud, Ash Storm, Burning Hands and Dancing Lights.

The Transmute, ash storm, stone skin and Dancing lights have been my major go to spells.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

dougelf wrote:

Any army with blue or high maneuvers would just destroy this army every time but no one has tried that. Either out maneuver it or just lightning bolt the crap out of it and it should go down.


THIS is the point. We've had a lot of experience with this game and every time a spell or die or sai is called broken it comes down to this. (with the exception of maybe 4 dice which are on my list to balance)

"I can't beat it by doing what I always do"

or to word it differently.

"I am a ROCK player, and can never beat PAPER. It is broken and needs to be removed from the game."

If you are consistently being beat by someone, you must change what you are doing. Don't keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... there is a word for that.

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
THIS is the point. We've had a lot of experience with this game and every time a spell or die or sai is called broken it comes down to this. (with the exception of maybe 4 dice which are on my list to balance)


Which 4 dice. You have me curious.


Also just checking but i didn't think it worked this way that during a ranged attack Sneak Attack can be used on the army being ranged at another terrain than the attacking army. Such as if i am using Sneak Attack and attacking from Home to Campaign they thought i could use Sneak Attack on the Campaign from my home which i do not believe is possible due to even though it is during a ranged attack it is not a ranged attack but an SAI.

Still weird when it happens though where i kill units in two different armies from one roll sometimes.

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