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Wild Growth

 
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Wild Growth Reply with quote

Continuing rules discussion from Cliff's game regarding SAIs...

How did Wild Growth actually work, and how does it work now?

I have an Oak Lord (3pts), a Noble Willow (3pts), an Elder Dryad (3pts), and several Oaklings (1pt... which are called Oaklands on Page 46 of the new rules Smile ) in an army that just rolled melee. I also have 3 Unicorns (4pts) and an Oak (2pts) in my DUA. The Oak Lord rolled Smite, the Noble Willow rolled Wild Growth, the Dryad Cantrip, and the Oaklings all rolled 1 melee each.

I choose to apply the Smite first, and I kill off 3 points of the opposing army. Next, I want to apply Wild Growth. I promote each of the rares to Unicorns and one of he Oaklings to Oak (that is 4 points total of promotion).

What happens to results?

The Smite already happened, but I can still promote the Oak Lord, right? My guess is yes.
Do I lose the Cantrip? Do I have to resolve it before resolving the Wild Growth to keep from losing it? My guess is yes on both accounts.
Can the Noble Willow be part of the promotion since it rolled the Wild Growth SAI? My guess is yes again, since the promotions "happen at once", which would immediately terminate the SAI, which would be good, because the unit that rolled it is now in the DUA.
Do I lose the normal melee result from the Oakling? My guess here is yes as well.

What about the dice coming in? Do the Unicorns and Oak get to roll in the attack? Not sure here. If they get to roll, then you are getting double results (I already applied the Smite from the Oak Lord AND the Unicorn it promoted to gets to roll as well?). However, the Oakling that had to be taken after resolving the Wild Growth lost its melee result, so I could see wanting to be able to roll the Oak in its place.

If the Dryad rolled ID, then you would lose those results in the promotion, without an option to resolve it before the Wild Growth like you could with the Cantrip.

Finally, you couldn't promote the Oakling 3 steps up to a Unicorn (counting as 3 points of Wild Growth) as one immediate promotion, right? I doubt it, but just figured I'd ask while we are on the topic.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:29 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several things to note:
First of all, the rules state that you can do something only if the rules say you can. Look at Regenerate, and you'll see it tells you to roll any units that come in. Wild Growth does not say that. Also note that in the Resolution of Die Rolls it says: "Once a die has been rolled and it’s been placed in the waiting effects line it will resolve at its assigned time." Also note under SAIs that it says: "If an SAI starts resolving it will continue to do as much as possible, even if the die that generated the effect leaves the army." Based on that, the Cantrip will still be there to be used if the Dryad is promoted. However, the melee from the Oaklings are lost. The new dice brought in are not rolled. Finally, it says in the description for Wild Growth: "Promotions are treated as Promote X health-worth in this army." That means that you can use 3 promotion from the SAI to promote from a Oakling to a Unicorn.

So SAI results are retained, normal results are lost. Dice brought in are not rolled.

Now is that what we want the SAI to do? That's a different question, and one that we will answer it a new version of the rules (3.1?).
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bluewizard
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Chuck beat me to this one. We say the same thing I just used a lot more words it seems.

First of all oops on Oaklings. Made a note to correct in next revision. Stupid autocorrect.

Here are answers to your questions.

shoesan wrote:

The Smite already happened, but I can still promote the Oak Lord, right? My guess is yes.


Yes you are correct. Once an SAI has resolved it has done its job and we don’t undo its work.

shoesan wrote:

Do I lose the Cantrip? Do I have to resolve it before resolving the Wild Growth to keep from losing it? My guess is yes on both accounts.


Yes you are correct again. There is a little skill testing here. If you apply your SAIs in the correct order then you should have better results than someone that does things suboptiomally. The better player should be able to capitalize.

shoesan wrote:

Can the Noble Willow be part of the promotion since it rolled the Wild Growth SAI? My guess is yes again, since the promotions "happen at once", which would immediately terminate the SAI, which would be good, because the unit that rolled it is now in the DUA.


Yes the Noble Willow can be part of the promotion as well. The Wild Growth will do as much as possible once you start resolving it. It does not matter if the unit that generated the Wild Growth disappears mid-resolution.
So here you get your 4 promotions/saves once you Wild Growth selection the Wild Growth to resolve. The Noble Willow will be promoted to the Unicorn and you still have the 3 remaining points to use. Now keep in mind these happen at once so you have to identify all the promotions that will happen and then execute them. You can’t have the Noble Willow become a Unicorn then have a 2 health Unit be promoted to that Noble Willow you just used.

shoesan wrote:

Do I lose the normal melee result from the Oakling? My guess here is yes as well.


You are correct again. Since to Oakling isn’t there for Calculate Roll Results it does not add anything.

shoesan wrote:

What about the dice coming in? Do the Unicorns and Oak get to roll in the attack? Not sure here. If they get to roll, then you are getting double results (I already applied the Smite from the Oak Lord AND the Unicorn it promoted to gets to roll as well?). However, the Oakling that had to be taken after resolving the Wild Growth lost its melee result, so I could see wanting to be able to roll the Oak in its place.



The new dice coming in will not get to roll. Since promotion does not indicate the new dice get to roll they only get to join the army.

For them to roll Wild Growth or the Promotion ability would have to indicate the new dice would get to roll. Since they do not they don’t get to roll.

You are correct as well with the oakling. Since he is no longer there when we Calculate the Roll Results he does not contribute to them. Part of the cost with Wild Growth is the fact that new dice don’t roll. While you don’t have a chance to do additional damage in the melee you do now have some stronger units.

shoesan wrote:

If the Dryad rolled ID, then you would lose those results in the promotion, without an option to resolve it before the Wild Growth like you could with the Cantrip.


You are correct. Since an ID isn’t evaluated until after SAIs are resolved it is no longer there just like the oakling above.

shoesan wrote:

Finally, you couldn't promote the Oakling 3 steps up to a Unicorn (counting as 3 points of Wild Growth) as one immediate promotion, right? I doubt it, but just figured I'd ask while we are on the topic.


Actually this is a neat one and it does work.

Wild Growth say: “ Promotions are treated as Promote X health-worth in this army”

Promotion says “If an ability allows you to promote multiple health-worth at once they may be combined to allow a larger unit to be returned or promote multiple units 1 health-worth. Any combination of these are possible.“

This actually works and the oakling just became a nice new shiny Unicorn.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, Ryan it looks like we do disagree on one point. I had said you would NOT lose the Cantrip because it was already queued up. You said you would lose it. I was basing that on these two lines: "Once a die has been rolled and it’s been placed in the waiting effects line it will resolve at its assigned time." and "If an SAI starts resolving it will continue to do as much as possible, even if the die that generated the effect leaves the army." Care to explain why we differ?
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bluewizard
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess Its another little nuance. You need to apply your abilities in the correct order. If you apply cantrip first you don't lose it. I'd you apply wild growth first and then promote the unused cantrip unit then it won't apply since it has not resolved yet and is no longer there after wild growth resolved.

Subtitle differences.
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to both of you for the detailed explanations. I am anxiously waiting to see how the Cantrip after the Wild Growth plays out. Smile

So, what was important for me to know was that the only thing that really changed is that dice brought back in no longer roll in the current action. I was worried that I was missing a bigger picture where other SAIs might not apply their results in the current action, mainly around Cantrip. Like, maybe you could no longer use Cantrip to cast Necromantic Wave and have it work during the remainder of the current action. So, now that I know that is not changed, just wanting to see Ryan's response to Chuck's response goes.

That being said, Chuck concluded with "Is that what we want the SAI to do?" as a separate question. I'd like to go down that path as candidates for discussion on the next rules update.

I think, generally speaking, I like this new way of doing it. But I do think Regeneration should allow the new units to roll, based on the flavor of what Regeneration is... where the concept comes from. Stepped Damage is a great example of building in a way to represent in Dragon Dice™ the thought of waves of undead coming... being so hard to kill them all. Regeneration, to me, should have that same quality. However, I could see that breaking down when a Troll regenerates some goblin commons... that doesn't serve to support the idea of regeneration very well. So, my requested change would be to add a line to the Regeneration description that states "Any unit brought back by Regeneration that is identical to the unit that brought it back may roll in the current action". So, a Troll that regenerates another Troll gets to roll in the current action. Anything else brought back by the Troll does not. That, to me, would really capture Regeneration.

And the follow up to that request would be another request. To change the icon used as Double Strike for the Hydra and Cryohydra (it is different than the other units that also have Double Strike) to be Regeneration instead. I don't think either of those units would be unbalanced by the change, and it captures the primary feature of a hydra... heads growing back. The getting to roll in the current action also keeps the "more attacks coming" flavor that Double Strike was providing.

Under my first request, Hydras and Cryohydras would only get to "roll in the current action" if they were brought in by Regeneration from other hydras and cryohydras respectively: hydras brought in by other hydras and cryohydras brought in by other cryohydras.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to note right now Regeneration does allow the returning units to roll. This is because thre regeneration SAI specifically allows it.

I will be making a note of your suggestion for the upcoming rules. We do plan to be looking at SAIs as a group. This release was the big foundation change with some tweaks. We will be focusing on things as SAIs in the future.

I will be at quite a few Dragon Dice™ events at GenCon with note and be happy to talk about rules and take feedback to share with those of us that look at these things. I am really looking forward to see 3.0 rules at the con.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
just wanting to see Ryan's response to Chuck's response goes.
It's going to come down to whether you have (started to ) resolve(d) the SAI or not.

If you resolve the Cantrip first, then it has happened and that die can leave and it doesn't undo the cantrip.

If the Cantrip causes itself to leave, then it can't be undone and it doesn't undo the cantrip.

If the unit leaves before you start resolving the cantrip, you lose it.

This is no different than in 2.9 knowing to cast your path before your hide spell. Resolve things in the optimal way or a less optimal way. both are legal.

Quote:
That, to me, would really capture Regeneration.
You've described a star fish making another starfish. Regeneration to me is a Troll bringing itself back, not cloning itself. That's why in DnD I had to burn them or they would be chasing me again the next day. So I'm picturing a 'Rise from the Ashes' type power, but maybe a little more frequent checks.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You've described a star fish making another starfish. Regeneration to me is a Troll bringing itself back, not cloning itself. That's why in DnD I had to burn them or they would be chasing me again the next day. So I'm picturing a 'Rise from the Ashes' type power, but maybe a little more frequent checks.


Well, not if you looked at it like the Troll grew its arm back, and the arm grew a Troll back! Mr. Green And a starfish making another starfish is regeneration!

Wikipedia on regeneration:
Quote:
A planarian parent, for example, will constrict, split in the middle, and each half generates a new end to form two clones of the original.[11] Echinoderms (such as the starfish), crayfish, many reptiles, and amphibians exhibit remarkable examples of tissue regeneration


So there you go... perfect Regeneration!

I still think it captures the essence. Since you can't have an injured unit in Dragon Dice™, this, to me, would still be a great way to represent it. Stepped Damage doesn't really play like hordes of undead... but doing Stepped Damage does give you the sense of not being able to ever kill them all. It supports the essence without exactly replicating it in the rules. To truly replicate it, you would want a racial ability that was more like Convert. But I don't think that is necessary as stepped damage still works to convey the concept of "never kill them all".

My Regeneration can't really work as regeneration because you don't have injured units to regenerate into full units. Maybe something like a stepped damage where you replace it with a smaller DUA unit of same race, and if that new unit is not killed by the end of your next turn, you can exchange it back for the Troll. But that would be a pretty cumbersome SAI in real play. I still think my original idea supports the essence of regeneration, even if its not perfect. I would think we want to keep Rise from the Ashes the way it is, and not copy that for Regeneration with some minor change to make it different. Like how Teleport is different from Ferry is different from Firewalking. Variations of the same theme. I'd prefer Regeneration is completely different from Rise from the Ashes.
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