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Bullseye and multiple SAIs
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Autpost
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:52 pm GMT    Post subject: SAI-FAQs Reply with quote

Since I have translated the SAI-list of the advanced rules into German, I've also collected a lot of FAQs to those SAIs. There is an answer to most of these questions somewhere else in the advanced rules, but there are still some where I'm not sure.
If anyone is interested in these questions (and too lazy to search for an answer), I'll post them here in alphabetical order (beginning with Bullseye).
Suggestions, comments, tricks concerning a certain SAI would also be interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bullseye SAI Resolution Type: Special (missile); Normal (dragon attack or missile avoidance roll)
During a missile action, Bullseye inflicts four points of damage. The total damage may individually target one or more
units as the acting player chooses. Each target unit must immediately generate saves against the damage assigned
to it. During a dragon attack or missile avoidance roll, Bullseye generates four missile results.


What if two rare units roll Bullseye? Am I allowed to sum up and split the damage? (dealing for instance 6 damage to one unit and two damage to another one)
Yes. See 'Targeting of SAIs' (page 27). I guess you may even do this if the two units are from a different race.

Am I allowed to split the damage in this way?: Dealing 6 damage to one unit and adding the remaining 2 damage to the standard missile result which the rest of the army has just rolled.
The text says 'The total damage may individually target ...'; So you may choose not to target units (because the word 'may' is used). Since it also says 'Bullseye inflicts four points of damage' you'll get (untargeted) standard missiles instead. However if you choose to target units, you have to use the entire damage to target units (because 'total' is used) and you may not split it in the suggested way.

If a targeted unit survives (because it rolls enough saves), is this unit rolled again when the rest of the army rolls for saves?
I don't think so. Targeted units already have got their save roll.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That means, the following trick does work: My army rolls for a missile attack. The result: 4 Bullseye and 8 standard missile. In my opponents army there are just 4 Phoenix monsters and nothing else - and they have captured the terrain. Normally I would target one Phoenix with the 4 Bullseyes and hope, that he doesn't save (which is just 30%). Then the other 3 Phoenix roll for saves against the 8 standard missiles. If just one of them saves (That has a probability of 97.3%!) the entire damage is prevented and it's very likely that no Phoenix will be killed at all. What if I instead deal just 1 Bullseye damage to each of the 4 Phoenix monsters? No matter what result they will roll, 1 damage isn't enough to kill a monster anyway. But they have to use up their save roll and when the rest of the army should roll for save, no save roll is made. So the 8 damage will go through without being prevented and 2 Phoenix are killed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The damage inflicted by SAIs is resolved first and individually targeted units roll for saves individually. After that, the normal missile attack is resolved and you roll for saves using your whole army! That includes the individually targeted units. You don't loose their rolls for your army if they have rolled for individual damage before.

At least that's how I used to play it so far, and please don't tell me I was wrong! Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
No matter what result they will roll, 1 damage isn't enough to kill a monster anyway. But they have to use up their save roll and when the rest of the army should roll for save, no save roll is made. So the 8 damage will go through without being prevented and 2 Phoenix are killed.


I may be off base here, but I don't think this would work. This has been tried in our group before. Our final decision was this. Since dealing one hit to a 4h unit is not enough for it to be killed, it is not necessary for that unit to roll a save since it would survive anyway.

Secondly ( and I see Dieter beat me to it while I was writing this), SAIs are resolved first, then the entire army rolls for saves against the missile attack.

Next question?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

... but at least it would be a cool tactical rule variant if you would be able to use Bullseye to prevent units from rolling for saves.
You are right. - The rules doesn't really say that those units aren't rolled for saves again. - So they are rolled for saves.

Treat it as a suggestion for a FAQ which could be included in a DCM2, (and as a suggestion for a slight rule change (But this isn't really necessary.))
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
What if two rare units roll Bullseye? Am I allowed to sum up and split the damage? (dealing for instance 6 damage to one unit and two damage to another one)
Yes. See 'Targeting of SAIs' (page 27). I guess you may even do this if the two units are from a different race.

The race don't matter. The only thing that matters is that it is the same SAI. Not an SAI that does something similar, the same.

Autpost wrote:
Am I allowed to split the damage in this way?: Dealing 6 damage to one unit and adding the remaining 2 damage to the standard missile result which the rest of the army has just rolled.
The text says 'The total damage may individually target ...'; So you may choose not to target units (because the word 'may' is used). Since it also says 'Bullseye inflicts four points of damage' you'll get (untargeted) standard missiles instead. However if you choose to target units, you have to use the entire damage to target units (because 'total' is used) and you may not split it in the suggested way.


No. You can choose to use less than the total 8, but it all is directed at individual units. Then it's done. Any Bullseye results not used are lost. The normal missiles results are just that, normal.

Autpost wrote:
If a targeted unit survives (because it rolls enough saves), is this unit rolled again when the rest of the army rolls for saves?
I don't think so. Targeted units already have got their save roll.


In an action a die may get rolled several times. For example, say you got a Bullseye, a Cantrip and some normal missile results. You decide to target a single unit with all the Bullseye results, but it saves anyway. You then decide to throw 2 Hailstorms from the Cantrip. All the dice in that army (including the one that just saved from the Bullseye) are rolled to save from that two points of damage. Then you pick up all those dice again and roll for saves against the normal missile results.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:19 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
That means, the following trick does work: My army rolls for a missile attack. The result: 4 Bullseye and 8 standard missile. In my opponents army there are just 4 Phoenix monsters and nothing else - and they have captured the terrain. Normally I would target one Phoenix with the 4 Bullseyes and hope, that he doesn't save (which is just 30%). Then the other 3 Phoenix roll for saves against the 8 standard missiles. If just one of them saves (That has a probability of 97.3%!) the entire damage is prevented and it's very likely that no Phoenix will be killed at all. What if I instead deal just 1 Bullseye damage to each of the 4 Phoenix monsters? No matter what result they will roll, 1 damage isn't enough to kill a monster anyway. But they have to use up their save roll and when the rest of the army should roll for save, no save roll is made. So the 8 damage will go through without being prevented and 2 Phoenix are killed.
As Chuck pointed out in his response, your basic assumption on this is not correct so this trick doesn't work. The save roll to resolve the SAI is separate from the save roll for the army and does not "use up" their save roll. All it does is guarantee you won't kill any with the Bullseyes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:44 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another chance for being wrong again:
I roll for missile and two Bullseye come up. So I chose my first Sharpshooter and let him deal 4 Bullseyes to an opponent's unit. It rolls for saves and survives. Then I choose a target for the other 4 Bullseyes (of my second Sharpshooter). May I target the same unit again?
No. SAIs are resolved SAI after SAI and not die after die. You don't choose one of your units and resolve the SAIs it has rolled, then go to your next unit. Instead you name a SAI-type (for instance 'Bullseye') and resolve all Bullseyes your units have rolled at once. Then go to the next SAI-type ('Cantrip' for example). You may split the Bullseye damage among your opponents units, but you may not split the resolution time in two parts.
So if two units roll Bullseye and one rolls Cantrip, you cannot resolve the first Bullseyes, then cast spells, then resolve the second Bullseyes.
Again I'm not sure if this is correct, but otherwise you can do something weird: Deal just 1 Bullseye damage to a common unit, then wait and see if it survives. If it saves, deal the next 1 damage to that unit and let it roll for saves again. If it survives again it's time for the next Bullseye. ...
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
Here's another chance for being wrong again:
........
So if two units roll Bullseye and one rolls Cantrip, you cannot resolve the first Bullseyes, then cast spells, then resolve the second Bullseyes.
Again I'm not sure if this is correct, but otherwise you can do something weird: Deal just 1 Bullseye damage to a common unit, then wait and see if it survives. If it saves, deal the next 1 damage to that unit and let it roll for saves again. If it survives again it's time for the next Bullseye. ...


Yep! You're wrong again on this one, at least as far as your resumee goes. Each SAI is resolved first, but you can choose the order in which they are resolved.
You can NOT deal one damage of one Bullseye, then again one point and so on, cause the Rules say you may spread the TOTAL damage. That means again (as in your example above) that dealing just one point of damage means that the rest (three points) just expire without dealing damage if yopu don't choose a target for them.

But what you can do is:
Deal up to four points of damage with your first Sharpshooter, if the unit saves, weaken it with 4 points of magic (Cantrip) and try it again with the second Bullseye SAI from your second Sharpshooter.
No matter how many SAIs you roll, you can resolve them in any order you wish. The rules don't say resolve any kind of SAI in any order! So if you got two of the same kind that doesn't mean that you have to resolve both at the same time!!

Autpost wrote:
......Then I choose a target for the other 4 Bullseyes (of my second Sharpshooter). May I target the same unit again?.......


YES!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's take your example, 2 Bullseyes, a Cantrip, and some normal missile results. You chose to do just one Bullseye first. That Bullseye does one to four points of damage which can be all spend on one unit or up to four units. You must declare all your targets from that Bullseye at once. All the unit affected are rolled together. Let's say you target 2 uncommons, one saves and one dies. Then you can cast a Cantrip. BTW, Die(ter) there is no way to "weaken" an unit. It's either dead or not dead. Then you resolve your second Bullseye. You may target again the unit that saved against the first Bullseye. In any case, that Bullseye is resolved, and then the army rolls to save against the normal missile damage.

BTW, if you target a common with 4 points of damage, it will be killed. Even at a minor terrain or eighth face that doubles saves. That's because this is an individual save roll, and it is not doubled. Protection spells that protect an army do not help. However, an Earthen Armor does help. So to kill a common with an Earthen Armor, you must hit the unit with at least 2 points of damage. Without Earthen Armor, 3 points will kill all commons. For nearly all, 2 is enough.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
... BTW, Die(ter) there is no way to "weaken" an unit. It's either dead or not dead. ......


I meant weaken by using the cantrip to cast spells which e.g. reduce/halve saves (=weaken the unit's defense power).
Of course it is not possible to weaken a unit by inflicting a little damage before using the Bullseye, since damage points don't sum up if they come from different spells, SAIs or other attacks.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words SAIs are resolved unit after unit (and not type after type), with the additional option that two units may sum up for being resolved at the same time (if they have rolled the same SAI).

So if 3 Sharpshooters roll Bullseye, I may deal 8 damage first at once, and then (after the save roll) choose targets for the remaining 4 damage. However I may not deal 6 damage first and another 6 later (since this would split the second 4 Bullseyes).

Bullseye should be just the warm up; If I continue posting my FAQ-list in this way, this topic will become too long. I will try to shorten my list.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's ok, but I'm going to rename this topic "Bullseye and multiple SAIs". Go ahead and make each new FAQ a new topic. It will be easier for people to find.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Then you resolve your second Bullseye.


I remember discussing at one point about forcing all SAI's of the same name to resolve together, but I don't see it in the rule book so it must not've made it into writing.

hmm.... Thats the problem with being on the ruling council you remember rules that never actually made it to rule-dom.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My initial reaction was that you would need to resolve either all of the Bullseyes and then all of the Cantrips or vice versa. However based on the way it is currently written, I'd have to rule that the application of one Bullseye, then the Cantrip and finally the other Bullseye is legal. I'm basing this on the following wording (emphasis added by me):
- Targeting: If multiple components with identical SAIS are rolled at the same time, they can be resolved simultaneously (i.e. their affects are combined).
- Special Action Icon(SAI): If two or more SAIs of the same resolution type are generated during a player’s roll, they may be resolved in any order the player chooses.

Since under targeting it says it "can" be done and not that it "will" or "must" be done, the player would have the option of combining them or not. If they aren't combined, then the sequence of the three SAIs (Bullseye, Bullseye, Cantrip) can be resolved in any order the player chooses.

Having said that, I think the rules committee needs to have another discussion about this. I can see where the language on the SAIs which states "... of the same resolution type..." could be interpreted to mean that the player chooses to resolve all of "x" SAIs then all of the "y" SAIs, then all of the "z" SAIs (i.e. all Bullseyes, then all Cantrips). They also need to see if there is an unintended side effect of allowing "split" resolution, particulary in the case of multiple Cantrips. For example resolving two Cantrips sequentially could allow you to chose a target that would not be legal if both Cantrips were resolved simultaneously. (Ex: Ashes to Ashes a unit with the 2nd Cantrip that was killed by a Finger of Death by the 1st Cantrip; or Hide a unit with the 2nd Cantrip that was returned from the DUA using a Breath of Life from the first Cantrip. In both the cases, the target unit would not exist at the time spells were declared if both Cantrips were resolved simultaneously.) Based on previous discussions, I think the intent was not to allow these types of situations but I don't think the wording would clearly support that. (This is the part of fine tuning the rules that becomes a real pain in the neck!)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:20 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can discuss this at GenCon, John. We'll have to table the change until after then in any case.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
We can discuss this at GenCon, John. We'll have to table the change until after then in any case.
I agree; the rules are locked for now and even if a decision is made to modify the wording, nothing should be changed until after the GENCON tournaments.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:34 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is not to change the SAI resolving order. Bullseye, Cantrip, Bullseye (to stay with the above example) is just fine! Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:28 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it was only Bullseye, Cantrip, Bullseye, then I would agree with you Die(ter). But the idea of Cantrip, (something else), Cantrip, is not a good thing. John's example points out how over-powering it could be. Any effect that can kill and bury in one action, has to be looked at quite seriously.
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