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Open Grave and target questions

 
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:46 am GMT    Post subject: Open Grave and target questions Reply with quote

I took this from one of our on-line games over here so that the game doesn't get disturbed too much:

chuckpint wrote:
Deeghter wrote:

chuckpint wrote:

Sneak Attack ... But if it did, Open Grave would not save any units. Open Grave only protects armies, not units.


Regarding to the following rules text
rules wrote:
Sneak Attack SAI Resolution Type: Special (missile or magic); Normal (melee or dragon attack)
During a missile or magic action, immediately kill up to four health-worth of opposing units in any army, with no save
possible. The owner of the Dragonslayer selects the target army; the target army’s owner selects the unit(s) killed.
Any Dragonkin selected as casualties are banished (removed from the game). During a melee attack or a dragon
attack, generates four melee results.

I figured that Sneak Attack targets an army, not certain units. In that case I thought that Open Grave would protect the army and myzery doesn't have to choose casualties Rolling Eyes (He doesn't have to since it doesn't work in a save roll, but if it was a magic or missile attack).

That's not the target. The target is "... four health-worth of opposing units ...". You get to pick which army the units come from. Doesn't apply to a two player game, but in a three or more player game, you could missile one player's army, and Sneak Attack a different player's army.


Call me "Dummie", Chuck, but this confuses me quite a bit. How can I find out which spells the Open Grave protects against?? Rolling Eyes

Is it shown by the spell beginning with "target...army" and by the entire army rolling for saves? That would be Hailstorm only(as far as magic spells are concerned).

Referring to Sneak Attack SAI in general: If I target something, then I choose the target to be affected. In the case of Sneak attack I don't choose the targets themselves but only the army which contains the targets. I don't see a difference in my action compaired to e.g. a Hailstorm, where I also choose an army and the owner chooses the casualties. The only difference is the wording of the text and the fact that in a Hailstorm the army may roll for saves.
If I was an assassin(killer, soldier, fighter, whatever), making a sneak attack on an enemy, I would choose which enemy to kill. The leader of the army has no influence on which unit(s) is (are) killed, 'cause it's a sneak attack! So if Sneak Attack targets units (that-fore inabling Open Grave to work), but I can choose the army only, then it somehow doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, is demotion (Degenerate Dragonkin) considered a damage to the army? But I guess, in this case Open Grave doesn't help either since the actual affected targets are just the Dragonkin in that army? Or is it the "target...army" text again which makes the Open Grave work???

Same with Foul Water. It targets an army but affects 1 health units only.

Fazit/resumee: Open Grave only protects against spells and effects which start with the wording "target...army" and which cause damage to the entire army??? As soon as certain units or x-health-worth-units are mentioned Open Grave doesn't work?? Is that right???

Same questions refer to the Leaving spell as well, with the difference that all my armies are protected and casualties move to another of my armies rather than the DUA.

Confused
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:18 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Open Grave and target questions Reply with quote

Its been a while, but I believe that OpenGrave falls under the 'Stoneskin' rule. If a Stoneskin would help reduce damage then an opengrave would apply.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Sneak Attack is slightly confusing. Think of it this way. The Dragon(?whatever?) is sneaking behind enemy lines in the darkness and kills 4 health-worth of units. Now he knows exactly where the army is at. But only the army owner (i.e. the opposing player), knows which units are camped out on the edge of the army. And those are the ones that the Sneak Attack targets.

But for any spell, SAI or other effect in the game, we use the same terminology for the targets. Whenever we state: "x health-worth of units", the target is the units not the army. In general, if the effect says "units" anywhere in it's description, then it's an affect on units. If it effects "armies", "all armies at the terrain", or something else about armies, then it affects the army.

Now for some special cases. Open Grave protects an army that is taking damage (melee, missile or magic) and requires a saving throw to generate normal saves against that damage in order to negate the damage. In the case of Degenerate Dragonkin, it's an avoidance roll, and you need to roll IDs to avoid the effects (demotion). The reason it's an avoidance roll, is that it is not normal damage negated by normal saves. Foul Water is a little less clear, but it targets an army. While only part of the army rolls for saves, and only part of the army can take damage (in both cases all 1 health units), it's still an army-effecting spell. Since it's normal damage negatable by normal saves, then Open Grave, Stoneskin and the like do protect the army.
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea Idea Idea Idea Idea
Aaaahhhh! That makes it clearer! Smile

As far as Sneak Attack is concerned, that's a logical explanation and makes sense!

Thank you so much for your patience in clearing things up for me!
And thank you very, very much for your help in the games, Chuck!! Razz
I'm sure it'll get better and better, keeping you less and less busy! Mr. Green

I appreciate your efforts, Chuck and Cliff!
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